Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Postby Berserk Cyborg » 17 Jan 2018, 08:58

updated-Campaign.wz
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Bethrezen wrote:With that in mind I'm wondering what armour upgrades to the collective get on Beta 01 ?
Both cyborgs and tanks had dense alloys mk1 so now they only have composite alloy mk3 for this mission only.

Bethrezen wrote:also how come the mini map is so small ?? as you can see in this screen shot and no i didn't zoom it out it started that small which it shouldn't do so i think the scaling is a little bit off

also is there a way to stop the mini map becoming blurry when you increase its size?
Ask Forgon.

Bethrezen wrote:there is definitely some sort of a behaviour change going on here.

Remember I made no group droids form groups and attack? The two potential groups with the sensors (machine-gunners and medium cannons) start attacking the player now since they got attacked. There would be some unintended side effects such as this case. Oh and I see I accidentally grouped transporters and trucks with this so I stopped that from happening with the above mod.

alfred007 wrote:The attached file includes the logs from Gamma 06, adjusted labels for Gamma 06, new labels for Gamma 07, the cam3-ad1.js file with the assemblies for the factories and the cam3-ad2.js file with the changed templates for the western factory.
Added to the mod.

EDIT:
I pushed the full changes in 16d570ef57bfefb2e3210eb2765c84dca864bd0f, 2531c6a866df8f2557a6099522818f3ee3ad0796, and 51ff947b4473b80b8a381e42ecf6c1c75af471f2. So when buildbot works Buildbot is working again so be sure to try Gamma 6 reticule buttons.
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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Postby alfred007 » 17 Jan 2018, 22:07

The reticule buttons showed up again as soon as I reached Gamma base.
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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Postby Bethrezen » 18 Jan 2018, 00:09

Remember I made no group droids form groups and attack? The two potential groups with the sensors (machine-gunners and medium cannons) start attacking the player now since they got attacked. There would be some unintended side effects such as this case. Oh and I see I accidentally grouped transporters and trucks with this so I stopped that from happening with the above mod.


Ahh I though that only affected units when your units attacked them humm.... maybe the way to deal with that then to have those 2 groups of units start a bit further back to give you a bit of breathing room as that would require them to move in to position before they can attack you that way you get say 30 to 60 seconds before they get in range to fire which should be just long enough to get your transport unloaded and your units out the front door to deal with them.

[edit]
While I'm thinking about it did you ever give the units on Beta 2 a bit of experience to make that mission a bit more worth while ? and did you ever figure out if there was a way to have the game remember what units where in the transport if the player tries to summon a 5th transport so that you are recovering your units instead of some randomly generated ones ?
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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Postby Forgon » 18 Jan 2018, 00:33

Bethrezen wrote:[...] also how come the mini map is so small ?? as you can see in this screen shot and no i didn't zoom it out it started that small which it shouldn't do so i think the scaling is a little bit off

On my system, the minimap for Beta 1 has an initial sidelength twice as long compared to the picture you attached. A hypothesis of mine is that the savegame you used broke as a result of ticket #4699, a patch in which I increased the default radar size from 16 to 32.

Bethrezen wrote:[...] also is there a way to stop the mini map becoming blurry when you increase its size?

This might be caused by ticket #4690, a patch in which I abolished a special pixelated look for non-rotating minimaps whose size is divisible by 16. If you prefer the old look, I could easily accomodate you if you told me whether you prefer pixelation at all sizes or only for some sizes.

To progress it would be nice if you could provide to me:
  • a screenshot of Beta 1 launched without using a savegame
  • the savegame(s) you used
  • a screenshot of the blurry minimap, ideally alongside a screenshot of a minimap without that flaw
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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Postby Bethrezen » 18 Jan 2018, 01:34

Ok so here is the screen shot of beta 01 when started from the start menu

Image

The mini map starts the correct size, although for some reason your base/units are red instead of green, so that's one minor error that should probably be fixed because it should show what ever colour you set in the options menu in my case green, as for the size issue looks like it may be an issue with loading old saves.

here is the save i have been using to start beta 01

Alpha Beta Interlude.7z
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with regards to the mini map looking blurry here is a side by side to demonstrate what I'm seeing, although it should be noted that this is taken from an older version before the mini map changes.

Image

now as you will see the one where the pixelation occurs the detail is a lot sharper, now ideally what would be good is if the mini map could be rendered in HD so that when you enlarge the mini map it remains sharp and detailed without becoming pixilated, probably the best way to do that is via a vector graphic, as this sort of a thing is exactly what vector graphics are for, question is does the game actually support the use of vector graphics, failing that then maybe doing the mini map as a high resolution bitmap would be a reasonable compromise as that is a lossless format so the detail should remain sharp, but again I'm not sure if this is possible.

Certainly I know that this sort of a thing can be an issue with lossy formats, which is why i tend to use PNGs as they are loss less and retain there detail even when heavily compressed to save size, the one catch is that they simply take a bit longer to load if using a lot of compression but with modern computers being so powerful you barely notice that unless the image is huge.
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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Postby Berserk Cyborg » 19 Jan 2018, 17:11

Pushed 7fcfc5acb432f8e36ee60973ea92f38a145881b8. Stops an assert on save/load because of a gateway being on a cliff in Beta 7.

I discovered something completely unexpected. I thought alliances were broken on mission end, but that is not the case. Instead it persists across missions which could lead to something unexpected on missions should the ally player be used for different purposes in later missions. I think it would be best to break alliances with other players on mission end.

Bethrezen wrote:While I'm thinking about it did you ever give the units on Beta 2 a bit of experience to make that mission a bit more worth while ? and did you ever figure out if there was a way to have the game remember what units where in the transport if the player tries to summon a 5th transport so that you are recovering your units instead of some randomly generated ones ?
No. Is that wanted (which rank)? Never did figure out the latter.
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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Postby Bethrezen » 19 Jan 2018, 18:43

No. Is that wanted (which rank)? Never did figure out the latter.


What rank was it that beta commanders units had on beta 1 professional was it ? maybe be give the units you rescue on beta 02 the same rank because realistically i don't think you could get much higher than that by the start of beta 01 though i guess it depends on how you actually play but normally about the highest I'd get my units by beta 01 would be veteran, obviously commanders and scanners could get higher then that due to the way they work but most normal combat units would be around professional / veteran level upon starting beta.
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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Postby Forgon » 19 Jan 2018, 20:01

All units taken over by the player during the campaign should be demoted because
  • the number of enemies they must have killed is ludicrous and implausible considering how few enemy units get them into trouble during the campaign
  • it demotivates a player when carefully trained units cannot match the experience of units for which no effort was necessary
The degree to which the experience of these units should be lowered could depend on campaign difficulty.
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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Postby Berserk Cyborg » 19 Jan 2018, 21:51

Beta 7 was good. The ripple rockets can almost hit you right out of the LZ so some kind of CB capability is necessary. Unfortunately, it appears CB droids don't work compared to the towers since they do nothing. I made its victory be total annihilation and forced return to LZ since that appears to be what the original script specified.

Bethrezen wrote:What rank was it that beta commanders units had on beta 1 professional was it ?
Done in ddce7a560da2f7d27065c3593a28476c6f18816b. They are the same rank as those in Beta 1. I myself manage to get a few of my heavy cannons to veteran rank by the end of Alpha and the rest are professional. And I almost always have a hero/special sensor unit by then.

I'll let you all discuss the demotion of units.
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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Postby alfred007 » 19 Jan 2018, 23:12

I updated to master 7fcfc5a and tested Gamma 07.

Looks good so far with one issue and three wanted changes.

The issue is that the lassat moves too far south with firing. As you can see on the picture below the lassat attacked structures I build in preparation for Gamma 08. In 3.1.5 the lassat only attacks units and structures in the area that already showed up in Gamma 05. He doesn't attack any units or structures in the area that new showed up in Gamma 06. This area gets attacked in Gamma 08

wz2100-20180119_193437-CAM3A-D1.jpg


The three wanted changes are:
a) Let the four VTOLs that are already on the map attack the player immediately like it is in 3.1.5. Maybe with a queue of 5-15 seconds.
b) Set the timer depending on difficulty. If would have wanted I could finish the level in about 15 minutes. But then I would have been unprepared for Gamma 08. There is no need to give the whole 2 hours for all difficulties.
c) The queue of 5 seconds for the lassat firing is too short. I played the level in 3.1.5 and sometimes the queue was about 20 seconds, but that is way too long. My suggestion: Set the queue to 15 seconds and let it depend on difficulty.

In the file attached are the logs of Gamma 07 and adjusted assemblies for Gamma 07.
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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Postby Bethrezen » 19 Jan 2018, 23:18

Forgon wrote:All units taken over by the player during the campaign should be demoted because

  • the number of enemies they must have killed is ludicrous and implausible considering how few enemy units get them into trouble during the campaign
  • it demotivates a player when carefully trained units cannot match the experience of units for which no effort was necessary
The degree to which the experience of these units should be lowered could depend on campaign difficulty.


While I get where you are coming from you are neglecting the fact that the units you get given on beta 1 and 2 should technically be rookie units with no experience and that is indeed what you see on v1.10 the issue there however is that this makes those units worthless especially when you consider they are not even combat capable because they are all critically damaged this is why the units on beta 1 where given some experience however when that was done the units on beta 2 where forgotten about so this just fixes that oversight.

with regards to the units you bring not matching the level of experience of the units you get given well this is a none issue since it is quite possible for players to get there units up to professional rank by beta 01 so long as you are not making silly mistakes and getting your experienced units destroyed and you are recycling and rebuilding units as you get better bodies to make them stronger and harder to kill in fact it's quiet possible to get at least 2 squads or 36 units up to veteran rank which is the next rank after professional although giving players free veteran units is being a bit to generous, so i think the lower professional rank is more appropriate although if it was felt that professional rank is still to high for the free units of beta 1 and 2 then they could always be reduced to the next rank down regular.

Not sure if it would be possible to have the free units of beta 1 and 2 have different ranks depending on difficulty though Berserk Cyborg would need to answer if that's possible or not.

[edit]
oh also I can still build oil derricks on burning oil wells, the way to do this is to tell your builder to build an oil derrick on a burning well then save and reload and the builder will then incorrectly commence construction even though the oil well is still burning, as you can see in this screen shot.

Image

I know I mentioned this one before but must have forgotten about since I'm still able to pull this off, and yes i know this is alpha 02 but this will work on any level i just did alpha 2 as it was easier to demonstrate the issue.
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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Postby alfred007 » 19 Jan 2018, 23:42

As far as Beta 02 is concerned, I would prefer to get the units back you loaded in your 5th transporter during Beta 01. It makes more sense for me to get the units you loaded in the transporter instead of units you've never seen before. But as a compromise, it's a good idea to give them the same rank like the units you get in Beta 01. At the end of the alpha campaign, I have for example 30 specialist units because I always play the levels that way to gain as much experience as possible. I think Berserk Cyborg with his veteran units played alpha campaign that way to win the levels as fast as possible. But that means that his units gained less experience than they could gain.

About the demotion of the units the player takes over, I'm vacillated. The rank of the units you get at the beginning of Beta 01 is professional and that's a rank a players unit should have easily reached during the alpha campaign. The units you get in Gamma 04 are already demoted because in 3.1.5 they had an experience of 4000 every unit. And that is really way too much. With the latest master they are still heroes, but with an experience of 512, so they could not become hero commanders like they would in 3.1.5. And an experienced player should have hero units at Gamma 04 at least by his own. So I don't think it's demotivating to get those units. But I like the idea to let the experience of the units in Gamma 04 depending on difficulty. If we take the modifiers we use for the level timers the experience of this units would decrease to 343 with insane difficulty. Therefore they would be still specialists and I think it's worth to test it and see what other players say about it.
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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Postby alfred007 » 20 Jan 2018, 00:01

Berserk Cyborg wrote:Beta 7 was good. The ripple rockets can almost hit you right out of the LZ so some kind of CB capability is necessary. Unfortunately, it appears CB droids don't work compared to the towers since they do nothing.


Another way to solve this problem you can see in this video of NoQ on youtube. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCZjrrOK7HM

And I use my VTOLs also to destroy the RR batteries of the collective. Move south at the western edge of the map and then turn east at the height of the RR batteries. And don't forget to bring in at least one truck to build some rearming pads for your VTOLs. The RR batteries are destroyed when your first reinforcements arrive and you can move on without getting destroyed by the RR batteries.

I can confirm that CB droids are useless at the moment.
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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Postby Bethrezen » 20 Jan 2018, 00:03

alfred007 wrote:As far as Beta 02 is concerned, I would prefer to get the units back you loaded in your 5th transporter during Beta 01. It makes more sense for me to get the units you loaded in the transporter instead of units you've never seen before. But as a compromise, it's a good idea to give them the same rank like the units you get in Beta 01.


Indeed I would as well because like you i think this makes more sense and if you search the earlier posts here is what i preposed, if the player summons a 5th transport the game will remember the units that where on the transport and it will be those units that are waiting at the crash site if however the player only summons 4 transports then the units at the crash site will simply be some generic units as they are now, although it appears that Berserk Cyborg doesn't know how to do this.

I theorised that such a thing might be possible via a .json file since they are just database files so it wouldn't be to hard to have the game populate a .json file on beta 01 if the player summons a 5th transport and then have the game read out the contents of that file on beta 2 and spawn the units listed if any, if not then just spawn 10 generic units but for the time being till some one works out how to achieve this the current setup will have to suffice.

alfred007 wrote:At the end of the alpha campaign, I have for example 30 specialist units because I always play the levels that way to gain as much experience as possible. I think Berserk Cyborg with his veteran units played alpha campaign that way to win the levels as fast as possible. But that means that his units gained less experience than they could gain.


How did you manage that one ? because the best i have been able to do is get my units to veteran yeah i can get commanders and scanners up that high but not regular units, although that might be because I typically play with more units then you because by alpha 12 I have 3 squads of 18 combat units, 3 commanders, 2 mobile repair units and like 4 trucks
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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Postby Berserk Cyborg » 20 Jan 2018, 01:32

alfred007 wrote:I updated to master 7fcfc5a and tested Gamma 07.

Looks good so far with one issue and three wanted changes.
Could you upload a save on Gamma 6? Yeah, two hours is a lot for this mission. What would you think if I made it 1 hour and 20/30 minutes for Normal (thus about an hour on insane)?

alfred007 wrote:I think Berserk Cyborg with his veteran units played alpha campaign that way to win the levels as fast as possible
I don't try destroying everything (on Insane anyway). I spend a good deal of the mission timer, and my power, building an awesome base. Right now I have so many structure on my Beta saves that warzone stutters when shadows are on.

Bethrezen wrote:Not sure if it would be possible to have the free units of beta 1 and 2 have different ranks depending on difficulty though Berserk Cyborg would need to answer if that's possible or not.
Yes. Though at that point they would be mostly used for recycling or cannon fodder anyway since a good player would have professional units at this time.
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