Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Postby Bethrezen » 10 Jun 2018, 02:18

no one has pushed any changes yet to master


of course not because this mod isn't going to be ready to push to master for quiet a while, because ever after we have finished, its going to need checking to make sure folk are happy with the changes, and there aren't any issues that we have overlooked, like for example making the easier difficulty level to difficult for example.
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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Postby alfred007 » 10 Jun 2018, 14:28

Bethrezen wrote:so if the light cannon is going to have a rate of fire nearly as fast as the heavy machine gun then having a damage value of 76 is probably a bit much.

now the heavy machine-gun has a damage value of 30, so I reckon that a damage value of around 40 to 50 would be a reasonable starting point for the the light cannon i mean the default damage value of the light cannon without any upgrades is 40 and after 1 damage upgrade that increases to 52 so that is right in the ball park, and i reckon if we increase the rate of fire to say 60 but only give 1 damage upgrade then the damage per minute should end up just about the same as the heavy machine-gun

light cannon
52 x 60 = 3120 damage per min

heavy machine-gun
30 x 107 = 3210 damage per min

now obviously this doesn't take in to account the modifiers so depending on the modifiers a damage value of 52 and a rate of fire of 60 might still be a little strong but it gives us a reasonable starting point and then we can see how it is and decide from there if any tweaking is necessary.


We have to be very careful by pushing the base damage so far. We are talking about the light cannon and if we make the light cannon too strong the heavy cannon will be totally overpowered in the later levels. As I wrote before I was testing the base damage of 90 for the heavy cannon in the beta campaign and this damage is useful. Much more and the heavy cannon became more overpowered than the assault gun. I will make some calculations this evening including the modifiers to see what base damage makes sense and what base damage causes more problems than it solves. For comparison: A base damage of 40 and a rate of fire of 60 would give the light cannon more than twice the base damage per minute the heavy cannon have with a base damage of 90 (2400 to 1080). And what base damage do you then want to give the heavy cannon that should be logically stronger than the light cannon? At the moment I think we have to accept that the light cannon is just an intermediate step to the medium cannon that we can make a useful alternative to the lancer by giving the medium cannon more damage upgrades than the lancer.
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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Postby Bethrezen » 10 Jun 2018, 18:57

[edit]
removed since my calculations where wrong
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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Postby alfred007 » 10 Jun 2018, 20:48

Next lets look at the lancer that has a damage value of 256 and a rate of fire of 10 however 256 is the damage value for 1 rocket not 2 so it's true damage value is actually 512 so that is a damage per minute value of 5120 assuming both rockets hit


You are doing the same mistake like before, see viewtopic.php?f=1&t=12714&start=960#p140857. A rate of fire of 10 means that the lancer is shooting 5 times 2 rockets per minute, not 10 times 2 rockets per minute. Giving him half the damage you calculated. And in my mod that I tested the lancer base damage is reduced to 120 from 160 and the base damage of the heavy cannon is set to 90 from 70. And with my experience with this base damages in beta campaign, I wanted to suggest to reduce the base damage of the lancer to 100 when we move on to alpha 06. So if you give the lancer three damage upgrades back to back the damage raise to 175 (3 x 25%) with a fire rate of 10 giving him a damage of 1750 per minute. A base damage of 160 for the lancer as it is at the moment in master is way too much.
If we give the light cannon the base damage of 2400 you suggested and we would give the heavy cannon a base damage of for example 50 percent more this would give the heavy cannon a base damage of 3600. For comparison: At the moment with my mod in beta 05, the heavy cannon has a damage per minute of 2925 and its good playable. Your light cannon would have a damage per minute of approximately 6000-6500, and the heavy cannon of 9750 in beta 05. Three times the damage it has with my mod. If you think the assault gun is overpowered at the moment the assault gun would be a child toy in comparison to the heavy cannon you suggest.

I agree with you that lancers are overpowered in the current version but the solution is not to make the cannons more overpowered.

Berserk Cyborg implemented the changes of my mod into the current camBalance Mod. The changes I made you can see here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=12714&start=975#p140889
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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Postby Bethrezen » 10 Jun 2018, 21:28

You are doing the same mistake like before, see viewtopic.php?f=1&t=12714&start=960#p140857. A rate of fire of 10 means that the lancer is shooting 5 times 2 rockets per minute, not 10 times 2 rockets per minute.


Grrr... that really needs to be changed because that is getting on my nerves.

in any event if the lancer is only doing like 2560 per minute then the heavy machine-gun is going to need nurfing as well because currently its doing 30 x 107 = 3210 per minute, because it's that which I was basing the light cannon damage per minute value off of and it was the lancer I was basing the heavy cannon damage values off of.
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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Postby alfred007 » 10 Jun 2018, 21:33

I found one more thing we have to include in damage calculation. The armour of the tanks. One example: A body has an armour of 20. That means that from every bullet that hits him this armour has to be subtracted. If you have one weapon that shoots 10 times bullets with a damage of 600 and one that shoots 100 times bullets with a damage of 60 they have both the same calculated damage per minute of 6000. But after you subtracted the armour from the damage of the bullets you get the following result.
10 x (600-20)= 5800
100 x (60-20) = 4000
This means even with the same base damage the damage that results is different. This is without modifier.

This explains the advantage of the lancer in comparison with the mini-rocket pod. The lancer is shooting fewer bullets with a higher damage and the mini-rocket pod is shooting more bullets with a lower damage. This results in a higher real damage the lancer deals than the mini-rocket pod though the mini-rocket pod has a higher base damage per minute. And it explains why the heavy machine gun even with a calculated damage per minute of 12.000 (!) nearly have no effect against the tanks of the collective. Because most of the damage is absorbed by the armour of the bodies of the collective

So for a comparison between two weapons and the balancing, we have one more variable we have to care about.
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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Postby Bethrezen » 10 Jun 2018, 21:40

While you may well be right about that the suggested values that's difficult to tell from the maths alone because the maths alone doesn't tell the full story, there are other factors that influence things and this info is never show in game which can make it difficult to work out what the values should be

Ultimately the easiest thing do rather then playing about with all the maths is to set the values to about what we think they should be and then just try it out because ultimately that's what really counts how the weapon actually performs against the enemies that you face on the level in question.

so in the case of the light cannon that's how it works against the new paradigm on alpha 05, with either no damage upgrades or only 1 damage upgrade if we are going to stagger them.

With regards to the light cannon I'm still of the opinion that it should probably have a rate of fire of around say 40 to 60 because its current rate of fire is way to slow, the medium cannon i reckon should have about half the rate of fire of the light cannon and the heavy cannon should have about half the rate of fire of the medium cannon

so if we say the light cannon has a rate of fire of 60 which is a little over half that of the heavy machine-gun then the medium cannon would have a rate of fire of 30 and the heavy cannon would have a rate of fire of about 15

now if we say that the damage per minute for a given weapon shouldn't be more than 3000 after getting 3 damage upgrades then that would mean that the damage value of the light cannon should probably be about 30 to 40 which would give a damage per min of 1800 to 2400 the medium cannon should have a damage value of 80 to 90 which would give a damage per min of 2400 to 2700 and the heavy cannon would have a damage value of about 160 to 200 which would give a damage per min of 2400 to 3000

if we take those values and subtract 18 which is 3 upgrade at 6 points each then that gives us the following base values

Light cannon base damage values after subtracting 3 upgrades at 6 point each 12 to 22
Medium cannon base damage values after subtracting 3 upgrades at 6 point each 62 to 72
heavy cannon base damage values after subtracting 3 upgrades at 6 point each 142 to 182

which oddly enough isn't that far of from the damage values the cannons have after getting 3 upgrades in an unmodified game.

light cannon 57
medium cannon 87
heavy cannon 133
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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Postby WZ2100ModsFAn » 10 Jun 2018, 22:28

All right went with a different strategy made more machineguns early

then when the mission started i went and attacked scavenger bases on very hard difficulty
recovering from a mistake i made! :oops: :(

right here's my github page

http://github.com/WZ2100ModsFan

i use 7zip and make the mods
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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Postby Bethrezen » 10 Jun 2018, 23:14

We have to be very careful by pushing the base damage so far. We are talking about the light cannon and if we make the light cannon too strong the heavy cannon will be totally overpowered in the later levels. As I wrote before I was testing the base damage of 90 for the heavy cannon in the beta campaign and this damage is useful.


just how many upgrade are you applying with a base of 90 and rate of fire of 12 you would have to be applying some stupid about of upgrades for the heavy cannon to be more OP them the assault gun because with a base of 90 3 upgrades at say 9 point each which is the default value and a rate of fire of 12 the heavy cannon would only be doing 1404 damage per min and that's not even coming close to matching the damage from the assault gun that doesn't even match the damage from lancers.

if anything that's less damage than what the heavy cannon does in an unmodified game with 3 upgrades which is 133 x 12 = 1596 damage per min
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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Postby alfred007 » 10 Jun 2018, 23:58

Bethrezen wrote:
We have to be very careful by pushing the base damage so far. We are talking about the light cannon and if we make the light cannon too strong the heavy cannon will be totally overpowered in the later levels. As I wrote before I was testing the base damage of 90 for the heavy cannon in the beta campaign and this damage is useful.


just how many upgrade are you applying with a base of 90 and rate of fire of 12 you would have to be applying some stupid about of upgrades for the heavy cannon to be more OP them the assault gun because with a base of 90 3 upgrades at say 9 point each which is the default value and a rate of fire of 12 the heavy cannon would only be doing 1404 damage per min and that's not even coming close to matching the damage from the assault gin that doesn't even match the damage form lancers.


At the end of beta 05 with 5 damage upgrades and one or two ROF upgrades (ROF is 13 shots per minute), the heavy cannon has a damage per minute of 2925. At the same time, the lancer has after 6 damage upgrades a damage of 300 with a fire rate of 12 shots per minute giving him a base damage per minute of 3600. And I think this is too much why I wrote before we should decrease the base damage of the lancer to 100.

And with your suggested values giving the heavy cannon after 3 damage upgrades without any ROF upgrade a damage per minute of 3000 would give the heavy cannon a damage per minute of more than 4000 at the end of beta 05. 2925 per minute is good to fight the collective tiger bodies. Every body of the NP will be shredded into pieces in seconds with these values.

And every damage upgrade for the cannons increases the damage by 30 percent, giving the heavy cannon for example 27 points more per upgrade with a base damage of 90. This gives you with three upgrades a damage of 171 with a fire rate of 12 resulting in a damage per minute of 2052 for the heavy cannon.
Three damage upgrades of each 25 percent for the lancer with a base damage of 120 and a fire rate of 10 results in a damage per minute of 2100.
The advantage of the lancer is the higher modifier against tanks, the advantage of the cannon is better modifiers against hover, cyborgs and structures.
With my suggested base damage of 100 for the lancer the lancer would have a damage per minute of 3000 at the end of beta 05 and that's enough. More for lancer or heavy cannon and you would create a new overpowered weapon.

A comparison between the lancer and the heavy cannon is relatively easy because they have similar values of damage per bullet so that we can ignore the factor of the armour of the tanks. A comparison with the assault gun is more difficult because the assault gun is shooting more bullets with a lower damage so that the armour becomes a relevant factor. As I wrote before, the heavy machine gun with a damage per minute of 12000 at the end of beta 05 is nearly useless against the tanks of the collective because most of the damage is absorbed by the armour of the units.
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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Postby alfred007 » 11 Jun 2018, 00:05

WZ2100ModsFAn wrote:All right went with a different strategy made more machineguns early

then when the mission started i went and attacked scavenger bases on very hard difficulty


Generally as a feedback for your strategy in your uploaded videos is to say that you should research every artifact as soon as possible. And you should take the time to research it. One example is the end of alpha 04 in your video. You finished the level before you have researched all artifacts. Researching the artifacts and upgrading your units are two very important strategies to win the game.
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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Postby Bethrezen » 11 Jun 2018, 00:31

If we give the light cannon the base damage of 2400 you suggested and we would give the heavy cannon a base damage of for example 50 percent more this would give the heavy cannon a base damage of 3600. For comparison: At the moment with my mod in beta 05, the heavy cannon has a damage per minute of 2925 and its good playable. Your light cannon would have a damage per minute of approximately 6000-6500, and the heavy cannon of 9750 in beta 05. Three times the damage it has with my mod. If you think the assault gun is overpowered at the moment the assault gun would be a child toy in comparison to the heavy cannon you suggest.


err say what now no i did say give the light cannon a base damage of 2400 that would be completely insane, what i actually said was

the heavy machine-gun has a damage value of 30 after 3 upgrades, and the default value of the light cannon with out any upgrades is 40 after 1 upgrade with the changes you made that increases by 12 taking the damage value 52

and with a damage value of 52 and a rate of fire of 60 that would give the light cannon a similar damage per minute value to that of the heavy machine-gun

light cannon
52 x 60 = 3120 damage per min

heavy machine-gun
30 x 107 = 3210 damage per min

which seems like i might be a reasonable place to start when balancing the light cannon.

however if you take in to account the other 2 damage upgrade that would increase the light cannons damage to 76 x 60 = 4560 damage per minute which is probably a bit much.

however at the time i didn't realise i was still loading the mod and what i meant to do was

light cannon
damage without any upgrades 30
3 upgrades at 9 points each is 27
my rate of fire of 60

would give the light cannon a damage per min of 3420 once you apply all 3 damage upgrades

medium cannon
damage without any upgrades 60
3 upgrades at 9 points each is 27
my rate of fire of 30

would give the medium cannon a damage per min of 2610 once you apply all 3 damage upgrades

heavy cannon
damage without any upgrades 106
3 upgrades at 9 points each is 27
my rate of fire of 15

would give the heavy cannon a damage per min of 1995

however upon doing that i realised there is an issue with these values in that they are completely backwards which means that we would need to change the base damage values and the values of the upgrades so if we do

light cannon
damage without any upgrades 15
3 upgrades at 6 points each is 18
my rate of fire of 60

would give the light cannon a damage per min of 1980 once you apply all 3 damage upgrades

medium cannon
damage without any upgrades 70
3 upgrades at 9 points each is 18
my rate of fire of 30

would give the medium cannon a damage per min of 2640 once you apply all 3 damage upgrades

heavy cannon
damage without any upgrades 180
3 upgrades at 9 points each is 18
my rate of fire of 15

would give the heavy cannon a damage per min of 2970 once you apply all 3 damage upgrades.

if you factor in 3 more upgrade from beta campaign again at 9 point each then that would increase the

light cannon to 3060 damage per min
medium cannon to 3180 damage per min
Heavy cannon to 3240 damage per min

which is not bad, although with these values the heavy cannon is stronger than the lancer so I fully expect that these would need scaling back a bit especially if you want the damage ceiling to be no more that 2000 2500 for alpha campaign as opposed to a ceiling of 3000 for alpha campaign.

At the end of beta 05 with 5 damage upgrades and one or two ROF upgrades (ROF is 13 shots per minute), the heavy cannon has a damage per minute of 2925. At the same time, the lancer has after 6 damage upgrades a damage of 300 with a fire rate of 12 shots per minute giving him a base damage per minute of 3600. And I think this is too much why I wrote before we should decrease the base damage of the lancer to 100.


I'm not so sure that's a good plan because that may well make lancers to weak on alpha but what you could do on beta perhaps is decrease the amount that each damage upgrade gives which would have the same effect of bringing down the lancers damage.

with your suggested values giving the heavy cannon after 3 damage upgrades without any ROF upgrade a damage per minute of 3000 would give the heavy cannon a damage per minute of more than 4000 at the end of beta 05. 2925 per minute is good to fight the collective tiger bodies. Every body of the NP will be shredded into pieces in seconds with these values.


I forgot that you get rate of fire upgrades on beta although this isn't to difficult to deal with once we know how many ROF upgrades there are and how much they buff the rate of fire its simply a case of subtracting that from what i have already presented here which would eliminate that problem in short order.
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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Postby alfred007 » 11 Jun 2018, 00:56

medium cannon
damage without any upgrades 60
3 upgrades at 9 points each is 27
my rate of fire of 30

heavy cannon
damage without any upgrades 106
3 upgrades at 9 points each is 27
my rate of fire of 15


Wrong calculation. Every upgrade is worth 30 percent of the base damage. This means every upgrade gives the medium cannon 18 points and the heavy cannon 32 points.

light cannon
damage without any upgrades 15
3 upgrades at 6 points each is 18
my rate of fire of 60

would give the light cannon a damage per min of 1980 once you apply all 3 damage upgrades

medium cannon
damage without any upgrades 70
3 upgrades at 9 points each is 18
my rate of fire of 30

would give the medium cannon a damage per min of 2640 once you apply all 3 damage upgrades

heavy cannon
damage without any upgrades 180
3 upgrades at 9 points each is 18
my rate of fire of 15

would give the heavy cannon a damage per min of 2970 once you apply all 3 damage upgrades


Again wrong. See upon, every upgrade gives you 30 percent of the damage without any upgrades.

Corrected calculation:

light cannon
damage without any upgrades 15
3 upgrades at 4.5 points each is 13.5
my rate of fire of 60

would give the light cannon a damage per min of 1710 once you apply all 3 damage upgrades, 2250 once you apply 5 damage upgrades like at the end of beta 05

medium cannon
damage without any upgrades 70
3 upgrades at 21 points each is 63
my rate of fire of 30

would give the medium cannon a damage per min of 3990 once you apply all 3 damage upgrades, 5250 once you apply 5 damage upgrades like at the end of beta 05

heavy cannon
damage without any upgrades 180
3 upgrades at 54 points each is 162
my rate of fire of 15

would give the heavy cannon a damage per min of 5130 once you apply all 3 damage upgrades, 6750 once you apply 5 damage upgrades like at the end of beta 05

That's more than twice the damage the heavy cannon deals with the current camBalance Mod. And this calculation ignores the ROF upgrades for cannons they receive until the end of beta 05. Still completely overpowered.
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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Postby Bethrezen » 11 Jun 2018, 01:32

Wrong calculation. Every upgrade is worth 30 percent of the base damage. This means every upgrade gives the medium cannon 18 points and the heavy cannon 32 points.


actually there not unless the default values where changed since master

warzone2100-master-20180204-051309-ab17b9b.exe

load the game with out the mod then use the let me win cheat to skip to alpha 5 research the light cannon make a note of its base damage value it should be 30 then research each of the damage upgrades and then check the design screen and you will see each upgrade increase the damage by 9 so that's

30
39
48
57

the medium cannon has 87 with 3 damage upgrade so we can extrapolate backwards subtracting 9 each time to get the values

60
69
78
87

maybe with your changes its 30 percent of the base damage but that's not what it is by default so the following

light cannon
damage without any upgrades 30
3 upgrades at 9 points each is 27
my rate of fire of 60

would give the light cannon a damage per min of 3420 once you apply all 3 damage upgrades

medium cannon
damage without any upgrades 60
3 upgrades at 9 points each is 27
my rate of fire of 30

would give the medium cannon a damage per min of 2610 once you apply all 3 damage upgrades

heavy cannon
damage without any upgrades 106
3 upgrades at 9 points each is 27
my rate of fire of 15

would give the heavy cannon a damage per min of 1995


is in fact correct as are

light cannon
damage without any upgrades 15
3 upgrades at 6 points each is 18
my rate of fire of 60

would give the light cannon a damage per min of 1980 once you apply all 3 damage upgrades

medium cannon
damage without any upgrades 70
3 upgrades at 9 points each is 18
my rate of fire of 30

would give the medium cannon a damage per min of 2640 once you apply all 3 damage upgrades

heavy cannon
damage without any upgrades 180
3 upgrades at 9 points each is 18
my rate of fire of 15

would give the heavy cannon a damage per min of 2970 once you apply all 3 damage upgrades.


because again I'm using the default number of points that each upgrade gives, and not your modified value because that's to much when using my modified rate of fire values.

Talking of which i used the let me win cheat to skip to the end of beta and the rate of fire for the light medium and heavy cannons was as follows

light 21
medium19
heavy cannons 17

so that's

21 - 15 = 6
19 - 13 = 6
17 - 12 = 5

again this is the default value when I'm not loading the cambalance mod.

so if we subtract that from my preposed values and we correct tr upgrade valus
light cannon
damage without any upgrades 15
3 upgrades at 6 points each is 18
my rate of fire of 54

would give the light cannon a damage per min of 1782 once you apply all 3 damage upgrades

medium cannon
damage without any upgrades 60
3 upgrades at 9 points each is 18
my rate of fire of 24

would give the medium cannon a damage per min of 1872 once you apply all 3 damage upgrades

heavy cannon
damage without any upgrades 180
3 upgrades at 9 points each is 18
my rate of fire of 10

would give the heavy cannon a damage per min of 1980 once you apply all 3 damage upgrades.

had to slightly adjust the preposed base damage for the medium cannon because it was a bit to high, again this doesn't take in to account the modifiers which would alter things some and thus require further adjustments but baring that i reckon these should work fine now that i have accounted for the ROF upgrades from Beta, which i forgot about.

[edit]
BTW while I'm thinking about it is there somewhere that explains what each of the values in the weapons.json does, because i was going to try tinkering with the weapons json but not sure what each value does.
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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Postby WZ2100ModsFAn » 11 Jun 2018, 01:33

Last edited by WZ2100ModsFAn on 11 Jun 2018, 02:16, edited 1 time in total.
recovering from a mistake i made! :oops: :(

right here's my github page

http://github.com/WZ2100ModsFan

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