Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

The projects speaking tube.
Add your two cents if you want to.

Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Postby Berserk Cyborg » 10 Jan 2018, 03:12

alfred007 wrote:@Berserk Cyborg
I visited your GitHub page and saw the changes for Gamma 04. That will be really as tough as possible. You coded the land reinforcements to spawn immediately after reaching the phantomFacTrigger. What I meant is immediate spawning after reaching the rescueTrigger. Is this an intended difference?
Honestly, that bit escaped my mind. Seeing as you say missions should be as tough as possible, and considering this is a rather bare map, I will make it so the land units arrive seconds before the first potential transporter load. If it is too tough, we can change it back.

As far as I know, those mapTile asserts are for the transporter being off map when it first arrives (and it sometimes happens on the first disembark order on the offworld mission. Coincidentally, I think that happens if some unseen object is suddenly revealed by moving the droids off the transporter for the first time on the map. Beta 4 always does this). It is interesting, in the case of Gamma 4, because it has a velocity vector that pulls it back considerably (outside the bounds of the map) in the opposite direction it is facing for a few seconds.

updated-Campaign.wz
Tough Gamma 4
(29.25 KiB) Downloaded 5 times


I tried seeing if the HQ would donate to Nexus, tried setting a limit explicitly for it, and it still does not donate. I also need to update the campaign library to handle factory donations so that Nexus can use them. Think I will just give them attack orders with a fast throttle cause most of the time I would suspect absorbed structures get destroyed quickly.

Nexus only takes over completely built structures now. Kind of an exploit in the past where a player could build a destroyed factory over and over and Nexus would keep stealing it.
User avatar
Berserk Cyborg
Code contributor
Code contributor
 
Posts: 432
Joined: 26 Sep 2016, 19:56

Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Postby alfred007 » 10 Jan 2018, 03:59

Berserk Cyborg wrote:Honestly, that bit escaped my mind. Seeing as you say missions should be as tough as possible, and considering this is a rather bare map, I will make it so the land units arrive seconds before the first potential transporter load. If it is too tough, we can change it back.


I tested Gamma 04 with your mod and it is still too easy. I took one experienced commander with 9 assault gun hover tanks, rushed south to catch the alpha team went back north and won the level in 4:20. And if I wouldn't have destroyed the first produced cyborgs of the NE factory I suppose I would have won in less than 4 minutes. As I said before, the phantom factories have to send their units to the map at that moment, that I reach the rescueTrigger and take over the alpha team.
I think this strategy will always be a relatively easy way to win this level, no matter what we do with the code. But you should have to break some resistance before you get back to your LZ.

I don't know if you have already tried to give my HQ to Nexus in Gamma 05. With your mod, it was there for a few seconds and then again disappeared. No take over by Nexus, it was not necessary to destroy it.

One question: What are the winning conditions for Gamma 05? As far as I remember in 3.1.5 you won after you researched the artefact and all Nexus units and buildings were destroyed. This means, if you want to win as fast as possible, you could win this level with just two reinforcements for Nexus. I think we should set a minimum of reinforcements that have to get defeated like we set a minimum of transporters that have to land in Alpha 07.
alfred007
Trained
Trained
 
Posts: 233
Joined: 31 Jul 2016, 06:25
Location: Germany

Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Postby Berserk Cyborg » 10 Jan 2018, 04:20

alfred007 wrote:I tested Gamma 04 with your mod and it is still too easy. I took one experienced commander with 9 assault gun hover tanks, rushed south to catch the alpha team went back north and won the level in 4:20. And if I wouldn't have destroyed the first produced cyborgs of the NE factory I suppose I would have won in less than 4 minutes. As I said before, the phantom factories have to send their units to the map at that moment, that I reach the rescueTrigger and take over the alpha team.
I think this strategy will always be a relatively easy way to win this level, no matter what we do with the code. But you should have to break some resistance before you get back to your LZ.
That is unfortunate. I still think there should be a way to negate that, but it would probably involve sending the reinforcements right away on mission start, the two triggers, or adding even more units to the phantom factories. This mission also has a poor defensive design and there should have been towers, hardpoints, or artillery that blocked a rush like this.

alfred007 wrote:I don't know if you have already tried to give my HQ to Nexus in Gamma 05. With your mod, it was there for a few seconds and then again disappeared. No take over by Nexus, it was not necessary to destroy it.
It tries when you hear Nexus say "synaptic links activated", but as you have seen donateObject() fails to do it.

alfred007 wrote:One question: What are the winning conditions for Gamma 05? As far as I remember in 3.1.5 you won after you researched the artefact and all Nexus units and buildings were destroyed. This means, if you want to win as fast as possible, you could win this level with just two reinforcements for Nexus. I think we should set a minimum of reinforcements that have to get defeated like we set a minimum of transporters that have to land in Alpha 07.
You need to only research that one resistance item. Maybe something similar to Alpha 7 would work. Another possibility is that we force the player to research the third resistance upgrade (in conjunction with minimum reinforcements check), but I have not checked if insane's timer would allow that.
User avatar
Berserk Cyborg
Code contributor
Code contributor
 
Posts: 432
Joined: 26 Sep 2016, 19:56

Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Postby alfred007 » 10 Jan 2018, 05:02

Berserk Cyborg wrote:That is unfortunate. I still think there should be a way to negate that, but it would probably involve sending the reinforcements right away on mission start, the two triggers, or adding even more units to the phantom factories. This mission also has a poor defensive design and there should have been towers, hardpoints, or artillery that blocked a rush like this.


Maybe we should NE and SW factory let start production immediately after the transporter has landed. The reinforcements in the SE would attack the alpha team and with no guidance from the player, they would destroy too many alpha units so I think it's better to start the SE production after reaching the rescueTrigger. And you should give the SW cyborgs a patrol order so that they run north and attack the units of the transporter and not the alpha team.
Would it be possible to double the first production of SW and NE factory? That would definitely stop a rush.

Edit:
Berserk Cyborg wrote:Another possibility is that we force the player to research the third resistance upgrade (in conjunction with minimum reinforcements check), but I have not checked if insane's timer would allow that.

I checked the time you need to research the third resistance upgrade. For all three you need about 25 minutes and the timer with insane difficulty at Gamma 05 are 40 minutes. I think we should combine the complete research with a minimum of reinforcements. I became a short look into Gamma 06 during researching the second and third resistance upgrade and saw that the transition of the units of Gamma 02 works.
alfred007
Trained
Trained
 
Posts: 233
Joined: 31 Jul 2016, 06:25
Location: Germany

Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Postby Berserk Cyborg » 10 Jan 2018, 07:46

Alpha has an alliance with Nexus until rescueTrigger is entered. Nexus reinforcements from the SE corner will totally ignore them just as the VTOLs do. I will enable the cyborg reinforcement spawners a few seconds after mission start and then immediately activate the SE one upon entering the rescueTrigger.

I am of the opinion that this problem comes down to how empty this map is. There are only avenger sites scattered around the map and no ground coverage options except for less than ten cyborgs walking around. This is only a suggestion and I understand if it is too much, but I think we could add some more Nexus defense structures on this map (or small bases) given the exploit you showed. That way it would slow the player down enough to actually fight through the map to rescue Alpha.

alfred007 wrote:I checked the time you need to research the third resistance upgrade. For all three you need about 25 minutes and the timer with insane difficulty at Gamma 05 are 40 minutes. I think we should combine the complete research with a minimum of reinforcements. I became a short look into Gamma 06 during researching the second and third resistance upgrade and saw that the transition of the units of Gamma 02 works.
Ok, will depend on having resistance Mk3 and several reinforcement runs. One quick question: How many Nexus units do you think you could handle at once on this mission?
User avatar
Berserk Cyborg
Code contributor
Code contributor
 
Posts: 432
Joined: 26 Sep 2016, 19:56

Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Postby alfred007 » 10 Jan 2018, 14:57

Berserk Cyborg wrote:Alpha has an alliance with Nexus until rescueTrigger is entered. Nexus reinforcements from the SE corner will totally ignore them just as the VTOLs do. I will enable the cyborg reinforcement spawners a few seconds after mission start and then immediately activate the SE one upon entering the rescueTrigger.


That would give me the opportunity to wait for reinforcements before starting to rescue the alpha team. I found it an interesting change from 3.1.5 to 3.2.3 that I was forced to rescue the alpha team relatively soon if I don't want to lose some of them. Because after I reached the phantomFacTrigger the cyborgs in front of the alpha team attacked them. With your changes, they wouldn't do that until I reach the rescueTrigger. But I think we should test that, because if I wait too long the second production of the SE factory will arrive and then I have up to 30 units to destroy. I agree that we should add more cyborgs being on the map already and also add some defences. I think as soon as we have an almost acceptable solution we should move on with testing and do more adjustment after the next release. It seems, that Gamma 04 will need a lot of work until we are satisfied.

Berserk Cyborg wrote:One quick question: How many Nexus units do you think you could handle at once on this mission?


Puuuh, that's difficult to say. The way I play Gamma 05 I have the Nexus reinforcements trapped through sensor towers and build a lot of Ripple Rocket Batteries to destroy them. After I researched the first resistance upgrade and Nexus will no longer absorb my units I have planned to build two combat groups to fight the reinforcements for gaining experience. For a first try, I would say we start with 16-20 units. As I said, make it tough ;-)

One side note: It looks like GitHub is not working. At the moment I write this you can download master 0b4012f and Per pushed master 7af198b about one o'clock at night.
alfred007
Trained
Trained
 
Posts: 233
Joined: 31 Jul 2016, 06:25
Location: Germany

Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Postby Forgon » 10 Jan 2018, 16:07

alfred007 wrote:[...] It looks like GitHub is not working. At the moment I write this you can download master 0b4012f and Per pushed master 7af198b about one o'clock at night.

Github works fine. Merely the buildbot downloads are out-of-date, which might be due to downtime.
Forgon
Code contributor
Code contributor
 
Posts: 41
Joined: 07 Dec 2016, 22:23

Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Postby Bethrezen » 10 Jan 2018, 19:11

I am of the opinion that this problem comes down to how empty this map is. There are only avenger sites scattered around the map and no ground coverage options except for less than ten cyborgs walking around. This is only a suggestion and I understand if it is too much, but I think we could add some more Nexus defense structures on this map (or small bases) given the exploit you showed. That way it would slow the player down enough to actually fight through the map to rescue Alpha.


Although I'm still stuck on Beta 3 while i wait on the vtol damage issue being resolved, i do remember the gamma mission where you have to rescue the alpha units and certainly I understand the problem with this mission because as I recall there are not much in the way of garrison troops and the couple of spawn points there are can easily be blocked off by building a bunch of turrets to cover your retreat back to the LZ or even just parking a couple of teams of units there to gain experience because as I recall the spawn point closest to your LZ only spawns cyborgs, and I think the couple of spawn points in the south west corner only spawn cyborgs and vtols, if i recall correctly nexus doesn't normally have a lot of tanks on this level, and only spawns tanks from the spawn point directly south of where the alpha units are hold up.

The big problem I have with adding turrets to make it harder to to get through the map is that you might find players have a hard time destroying them due to the bug that make it hard for direct fire units to hit targets that are in elevated locations, particularly since you are manoeuvring down narrow canyons where you have no room to manoeuvre.

another problem with this level is that pathing issues are particularly acute here due to the way the map is designed, so adding more units isn't the best way to go about making this level tougher because you might find that units get stuck and i suspect that this is the reason that this level is designed the way it is with mostly cyborgs since they are smaller and less prone to getting stuck due to pathing issues

so due to these issues I'm not really sure there is going to be much you can do really because if you add more enemy units you may well end up with pathing issue and those units getting stuck and if you add turrets then my might find that player can't destroy them due to the bug that makes it hard for direct fire units to hit targets that are in elevated locations, and this doesn't even take into account the other bug that stops your units firing if they are to close to the target.

How many Nexus units do you think you could handle at once on this mission?


That largely depends on the troops that are actually being spawned, it also depends on exactly which gamma missions you are talking about if you are talking about the mission where you have to research the firewall software to stop nexus taking over your units and buildings that's a tricky one because normally i have whole buntch of hellstorm howitzers positioned in various points on the map to instantly wipe out anything that nexus takes over, i know that's a bit over kill but given that i have no units on this level I don't want to take any chances.

As to why i don't have any units its because i recycled all my combat units to stop nexus stealing them and i will rely solely on turrets to defend my self and the only units i will have is about 10 builders positioned in teams of 2 or 3 to rebuild anything that gets destroyed due to nexus taking it over, or to repair anything that gets damaged due to being attacked by nexus units.

if you are talking about the mission where you have to rescue the alpha units then again it depends because a team of experienced assault gunners attached to an experienced commander could rip there way through legions of cyborgs with very little effort even on insane, and it would be tricky to make cyborgs offer sufficient resistance to the player due to the fact that cyborgs are weak against machine guns
Bethrezen
Trained
Trained
 
Posts: 403
Joined: 25 Sep 2009, 02:05

Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Postby alfred007 » 10 Jan 2018, 20:58

Forgon wrote:
alfred007 wrote:[...] It looks like GitHub is not working. At the moment I write this you can download master 0b4012f and Per pushed master 7af198b about one o'clock at night.

Github works fine. Merely the buildbot downloads are out-of-date, which might be due to downtime.


Uuups :oops: I meant buildbot.
alfred007
Trained
Trained
 
Posts: 233
Joined: 31 Jul 2016, 06:25
Location: Germany

Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Postby alfred007 » 10 Jan 2018, 21:18

@Bethrezen

I agree that it will be difficult to find a really good solution for Gamma 04. With the current master, you can win Gamma 04 in less than 4 minutes and that makes no sense. That's the reason for the discussion between Berserk Cyborg and me. It will be a lot of work with Gamma 04 also due to the things you mentioned. That's why I said we should find now an acceptable solution and adjust the level later after the next release. And possibly we must first accept that a rush is possible and look later for ways to prevent the rush.

The question how many units I can handle at once relates to Gamma 05. At the beginning of Gamma 05, I also recycle my combat units like you do. But later I want to fight the Nexus troops for gaining experience. And you are right it depends on what units are spawning. It's a first suggestion and I will see if we have to adjust it or not.
alfred007
Trained
Trained
 
Posts: 233
Joined: 31 Jul 2016, 06:25
Location: Germany

Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Postby Berserk Cyborg » 10 Jan 2018, 21:24

I toughened Gamma 4 and 5 some more. You can look at my branch on github for more details. Gamma 5 requires 15 land nexus loads before winning, all three resistence upgrades are necessary. Nexus only stops hacking stuff until all three are researched.

Edit: mod in my next post.


Bethrezen, I made the VTOL lancer have a base damage of 180 instead of 240. Let me know what you think.
base-lancer-change.wz
(7.34 KiB) Downloaded 7 times


I will try designing a base or two on Gamma 4 later.
User avatar
Berserk Cyborg
Code contributor
Code contributor
 
Posts: 432
Joined: 26 Sep 2016, 19:56

Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Postby alfred007 » 10 Jan 2018, 21:39

Berserk Cyborg wrote:Nexus only stops hacking stuff until all three are researched.


That makes no sense in my eyes. In that case, you will just sit there and wait until your artillery has destroyed all Nexus units. That's boring. For winning the level it's okay to research all three upgrades, but if you want that the player fights Nexus with his combat units Nexus has to stop hacking stuff after the first upgrade is researched.
alfred007
Trained
Trained
 
Posts: 233
Joined: 31 Jul 2016, 06:25
Location: Germany

Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Postby Berserk Cyborg » 10 Jan 2018, 21:49

Ok, it stops after the first research again.
updated-Campaign.wz
(29.3 KiB) Downloaded 7 times


Edit:
Here is the above mod with more defensive design for Gamma 4 to help prevent a rush. Try not use the deity cheat on first try.
updated-Campaign.wz
Latest scripts with new Gamma 4 design
(42.94 KiB) Downloaded 5 times
User avatar
Berserk Cyborg
Code contributor
Code contributor
 
Posts: 432
Joined: 26 Sep 2016, 19:56

Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Postby Bethrezen » 11 Jan 2018, 10:24

Bethrezen, I made the VTOL lancer have a base damage of 180 instead of 240. Let me know what you think.


Ok so I been having a look at the issue with lancers on master and it seems that v1.10 in fact has a bug, so even though you can research HEAT Rockets mk1, HEAT Rockets mk2 and HEAT Rockets mk3 those upgrades don’t appear to actually do anything so lancers stay at there base value of 160 damage which is why when you start Beta 01 on v1.10 your lancers are still at 160 when in fact they should be higher, which would in turn make the collative lancer vtols more powerful.

On v1.10 when you start Beta 01 your ground based lancers are still at 160 due to the previously mentioned bug now if we make the assumption that the amount of damage that each of the 3 HEAT upgrades gives you has not changed between v1.10 and master then on v1.10 when you start Beta 01 your ground based lancers should be at 304, and this matches with what we see in master.

However when it comes to the lancer vtols if I do a bit of math something still doesn't add up correctly.

Now on v1.10 the base damage value for there lancer vtols appears to be 240 now if we assume that HEAT Rocket upgrades should also apply to there lancer VTOLs then that means that on v1.10 the damage value of the lancer vtols should be 384, now if we further assume that you are also supposed to get the 3 HESH rocket upgrade on Beta 01 which you also don’t get due to bugs then that takes the damage value of there lancer vtols to 528 on Beta 01

Next we compare this to what we see in master, and it very quickly becomes apparent that something is very very wrong as we know from observations that the damage there lancer vtols are inflicting on beta 03 is around 800 to 900 each so some how the damage value of there lancer vtols is around 300 points or about 50% to 60% higher then what it should be.

So the question is why? Where is that extra damage coming from? because removing 1 of the HESH upgrades from beta 01 should of brought the damage of there lancer vtols down to 480 which even with 4 of them attacking a single unit should be survivable your unit would be critically damaged yes and would probably only have a few hundred points of hp left depending on various factors but they would at least have a chance.

having looked more closely at this I'm not surprised that the changed stat mode that Alfred made earlier didn't appear to do anything because there definitely seems to be a nasty bug somewhere that is causing there lancer vtols to become way more powerful then they should be because if my math is right then there is no way in hell there lancer vtols should be able to achieve damage values of anywhere near 800 / 900 points so early in beta maybe a bit later on when you get some additional upgrades yes but not at the start.

This can be further confirmed by using the give all cheat on beta 3 to allow you to get access to lancer vtols and when you do the damage value is set at 600 when it should be at 480

base damage = 240
HEAT Rockets mk1 = 48
HEAT Rockets mk2 = 48
HEAT Rockets mk3 = 48
HESH Rockets mk1 = 48
HESH Rockets mk2 = 48

240 + 48 + 48 + 48 + 48 + 48 = 480

In any event I'll give the mod a go and see how that is but really i think you need to try and track down where this extra damage is coming from because this is particularly nasty and is going to affect more than just Beta 03
Bethrezen
Trained
Trained
 
Posts: 403
Joined: 25 Sep 2009, 02:05

Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Postby alfred007 » 11 Jan 2018, 11:57

I'm not sure if this is the correct calculation, but every VTOL lancer shoots two rockets with every attack. And if you give the calculated damage to every rocket the calculation for an attack is the following:
Base damage 240
3 upgrades that give 30% more damage per upgrade 3 x 72 = 216
240 + 216 = 456
Two rockets: 456 + 456 = 912
4 VTOL lancer in Beta 03: 4 x 912 = 3648 maximum damage.
That would explain the damage of 3000 you saw in your test in Beta 03.

And in your calculation, you took 30 % of the base damage of 160 from tank lancers. But 30 % of the base damage of 240 from VTOL lancers is 72. And that gives the following calculation:
240 + 72 +72 +72 +72 +72 = 600

And for my changes, I think I was wrong when I confirmed that it works if you just put the files into a zip-file. I think you must put them into a folder called "stats" and then add this folder into a zip-file with .wz ending.

Try the added mod. Maybe this works.
Attachments
adjusted stats.wz
(8.07 KiB) Downloaded 9 times
alfred007
Trained
Trained
 
Posts: 233
Joined: 31 Jul 2016, 06:25
Location: Germany

PreviousNext

Return to News and announcements

cron