Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

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AndrewTheOnly
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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Post by AndrewTheOnly » 21 Jun 2018, 05:07

Ok, so I gave the campaign a go, and I have to say, it's much harder than before.

Alpha 01 went good, after I noticed that flamers have an incredible range and that repairing tanks is necessary.

Alpha 02 wasn't such a big of a deal either.

Now Alpha 03 was a pain. I think I lost about 5 times on this mission. I always loaded 2 repair units and 8 twin machineguns or flamers or 4 twin machineguns and 4 flamers, but the 8 TMG and 2 repair units worked out the best. Those scavenger flamers are very dangerous, as if it shoots you once, it takes down half of your tanks health. I also noticed something, don't know if it is a bug or not, but the scavenger flamers try to predict where your tanks are going to go, and their shots can be easily dodged.

Alpha 04 went as well as before.

Alpha 05 was actually harder this time. I started out by normally going to the south-east corner of the map, the one that activates reinforcements. I was then surprised about seeing this unexepected scavenger base, but I took it out quicly. After loading about 21 tanks, with a variety of weapons(HMGs, flamers, mortars, light cannons) I melted down the NP tanks, but not the NP turrets. Of all those 21 tanks, with Viper body and Half-Tracks, I remained with only 4, after I destroyed only the 4 light cannon turrets in the front of the NP base.

I noticed how hard these structures can be destroyed since Alpha 02, when I attacked the Power Generator to get the Power Module artifact. The same was for the Research Facility at Alpha 04. Not only for my tanks was hard to destroy structures, but I noticed also for NP. 6 NP medium cannons attacked my LZ, which was protected with HMG Guard Towers, and my towers took very little damage. Scavengers seem to not be affected by this, as they destroyed 4 of my MG Guard Towers in Alpha 02.

Bethrezen
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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Post by Bethrezen » 21 Jun 2018, 05:55

Ok, so I gave the campaign a go, and I have to say, it's much harder than before.
What difficulty where you playing on? because damage and the like scale with difficulty now so its possible that balancing changes made for insane could make the easier difficulties harder then intended as we haven't sorted out the easier difficulties yet as we are still working on insane which is supposed to be for experienced players.

As far as making the campaign harder that’s kind of the point because previously scav's where to weak and as the player became stronger the scav's didn’t scale up which is something that we have been addressing in order to keep the scav's relevant as the player gets stronger.

plus some weapons where to weak and some where to strong so we have been addressing this as we go also
I noticed how hard these structures can be destroyed since Alpha 02, when I attacked the Power Generator to get the Power Module artifact. The same was for the Research Facility at Alpha 04. Not only for my tanks was hard to destroy structures, but I noticed also for NP. 6 NP medium cannons attacked my LZ, which was protected with HMG Guard Towers, and my towers took very little damage. Scavengers seem to not be affected by this, as they destroyed 4 of my MG Guard Towers in Alpha 02.
By the sounds of it this is a modifier issue since the modifiers for machine-guns where lowered because machine-guns where to strong, and I think there damage was slightly nurfed as well so on alpha 2 and alpha 04 you will find it harder to destroy the new paradigm power plant/research facility using machine-guns although this isn't a big issue because the player doesn't start encountering hardened structures till alpha 05, but of course from alpha 5 onwards you have more options so destroying hardened structures shouldn't be a problem so long as you use the appropriate weapon.

as for your towers taking little damage from the new paradigms cannons this can be accounted for by the fact that we have only adjusted machine-guns and flamers so far so cannons are still using there old underpowered values.

plus we discovered this afternoon that the all rounder modifier wasn’t working since the anti air craft and all rounder modifiers are basically the same thing as I understand it so the game was ignoring the all rounder modifier and using the anti air modifier instead, which of course was throwing off are attempts to balance cannons, but hopefully once the issue with the modifiers is sorted out we can get this resolved with a little trial and error, as the theoretical maths and game play experience should match.

AndrewTheOnly
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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Post by AndrewTheOnly » 21 Jun 2018, 06:56

What difficulty where you playing on? because damage and the like scale with difficulty now so its possible that balancing changes made for insane could make the easier difficulties harder then intended as we haven't sorted out the easier difficulties yet as we are still working on insane which is supposed to be for experienced players.
I was playing on normal difficulty.

Bethrezen
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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Post by Bethrezen » 21 Jun 2018, 06:59

Overpowered as soon as you make medium and heavy cannon stronger than the light cannon. The heavy cannon will be at the end overpowered, not the light cannon.
Maybe, maybe not it depends, see heavy machineguns are theoretically already stronger then lancers even with 3 damage upgrades, certainly they have a higher damage per minute value then lancers with 3 damage upgrades.

But in practice despite the fact that lancers have a lower damage per minute value then heavy machineguns lancers are still stronger because as I mentioned before the damage per minute value isn’t everything, and weapons that have high rates of fire but low damage per shot are more affected by damage reduction modifiers as they have a bigger percentage of each shots damage absorbed by the opponents armour.

So in the case of heavy machine guns they do 30 damage per shot with 3 damage upgrades but a medium new paradigm body has

Code: Select all

"armourHeat": 6,
"armourKinetic": 15,
"name": "Cobra",
Which for a heavy machine with 3 damage upgrades is a 50% damage reduction per shot but for a lancer with a base damage of 160 which is its default value that’s only around a 10% damage reduction per shot, so this is why weapons like lancers are still stronger even though weapons like the heavy machine guns have a higher damage per minute value.

So when you take the opponents armour in to account the heavy machine-guns damage goes down from 3210 damage per minute to 1605 damage per minute

where a lancer with a damage per minute of 1600 is only reduced by about 10% so its real damage is around 1440 damage per minute and that's with no upgrades.

So you see you can tune the medium and heavy cannons damage to match the lancer and mini rockets and despite the fact the light cannon might have a higher damage per minute value medium and heavy cannons should still be stronger due to the fact that like the lancer in the above example medium and heavy cannons are less affected by damage reduction modifiers.

so a light cannon with a damage value of 46 would take about a 33% damage reduction per shot against a new paradigm medium body where a heavy cannon with a base damage of say 120 would only take about a 12.5% damage reduction per shot.

now I could be wrong about this but certainly that would tally with my previous game play experience, and this helps to explain why lancer are so powerful, because even thought they only fire a few shots per minute each shot hits like a truck because each shot is only minimally affected by damage reduction modifiers.

alfred007
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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Post by alfred007 » 21 Jun 2018, 19:20

You suggested a damage of 30 and a ROF of 60 for the light cannon what results in a base damage per minute (before enemy armour) or 1800. If we say the heavy cannon should have the same base damage per minute (before enemy armour) you can to give the heavy cannon, for example, a damage of 90 with a ROF of 20.

After three damage upgrades, the damage per minute against a half-tracked NP unit with Scorpion body would be the following:

90 (base damage) x 3 damage upgrades with 30 % each give a damage of 171.
171 x 110 % (weaponmodifier against halt-tracked units) = 188
188 -12 (armour of scorpion body) = 176
176 x 20 (ROF) = 3520

In comparison the overpowered lancer of version 3.2.3

160 (base damage) x 3 upgrades with 25 % each give a damage of 280
280 x 120 % (weaponmodifier against half-tracked units) = 336
336 -12 (armour of scorpion body) = 324
324 X 10 (ROF) = 3240

This is just math but the math the game used to calculate the damage. That means, even if we give the heavy cannon only the same base damage per minute you suggested for the light cannon the resulting heavy cannon deals nearly 10 % more damage than the overpowered lancer of version 3.2.3. That's what I mean when I say that you are on the way to an overpowered weapon.

I just wanted to explain what I mean with overpowered for the heavy cannon. As you said, the truth is in the game and we should stop our discussion at the moment and restart it when we see what damage the light cannon really deals in the game after the issue with the weaponmodifier is fixed.

One minor thing: In your last post you showed the armour of the Cobra body and that is the body of the project, not of the NP. If your interested, I extracted the armours of all bodies (without any armour upgrades) from the code and can post it here.

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Berserk Cyborg
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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Post by Berserk Cyborg » 21 Jun 2018, 19:52

alfred007 wrote: I just wanted to explain what I mean with overpowered for the heavy cannon. As you said, the truth is in the game and we should stop our discussion at the moment and restart it when we see what damage the light cannon really deals in the game after the issue with the weaponmodifier is fixed.
As a workaround, for the moment, we can simply copy the "ALL ROUNDER" modifiers into "ANTI AIRCRAFT" for the time being. That way we can see the real state of the cannons at least.
AndrewTheOnly wrote: Now Alpha 03 was a pain. I think I lost about 5 times on this mission. I always loaded 2 repair units and 8 twin machineguns or flamers or 4 twin machineguns and 4 flamers, but the 8 TMG and 2 repair units worked out the best. Those scavenger flamers are very dangerous, as if it shoots you once, it takes down half of your tanks health. I also noticed something, don't know if it is a bug or not, but the scavenger flamers try to predict where your tanks are going to go, and their shots can be easily dodged.
It's not quite as accurate compared to flamer the player has.
AndrewTheOnly wrote: I noticed how hard these structures can be destroyed since Alpha 02, when I attacked the Power Generator to get the Power Module artifact. The same was for the Research Facility at Alpha 04. Not only for my tanks was hard to destroy structures, but I noticed also for NP. 6 NP medium cannons attacked my LZ, which was protected with HMG Guard Towers, and my towers took very little damage. Scavengers seem to not be affected by this, as they destroyed 4 of my MG Guard Towers in Alpha 02.
Perhaps it will be enough to reduce armor and HP of the steel towers slightly. Scavengers are using machine-guns mostly and that does not do well against these medium strength towers anymore.

nearo
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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Post by nearo » 21 Jun 2018, 19:56

nearo wrote:I think AA weapons can hurt other targets than VTOLs with their splash damage. However this happens rarely and the damage is very low.
Bethrezen wrote:while I'm thinking about it why can't AAA shoot at ground targets ? since AAA weapons are basically quad cannons or duel assault guns, more over how come the standard assault gun is so weak against air craft when its basically exactly the same as the duel AAA version.
I think AA guns would be overpowered against ground targets. If you start to nerf them they would become useless against VTOLs.
Also WW is not exactly the same as AG because WW shoots explosive rounds.
Bethrezen wrote:We should also probably remove the lift value from the other modifiers and do a couple of new modifier for weapons that can shoot at both air and ground targets such as machine-guns and scourge missiles maybe something like
The reason there is a "LIFT" modifier for every weapon is because everything can shoot at VTOLs when they are not flying (except AA weapons).
I just checked the weapons.txt in base.wz/stats on my own 2.3.9 game, and if I understand it correctly a lot of VTOL weapons use the AA modifiers instead of the modifiers their non-VTOL variants use. For example all non-VTOL MGs are anti personnels, while all VTOL MGs are anti aircraft weapons. So, this is the reason there is a modifier for every target types for AA weapons.

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Berserk Cyborg
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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Post by Berserk Cyborg » 22 Jun 2018, 03:20

What I did was set this up exactly how multiplayer does it. Defined "ALL ROUNDER" and remove "ANTI AIRCRAFT" from the modifier files. That way the anti-aircraft modifiers don't override all-rounder modifiers.

We can probably forego the second cannon damage upgrade on Alpha 4, and give the cannon damage upgrade back to the AIs on Alpha 5. And that is what this revision of the balance mod does. I also reduced the armor and HP of the flamer and MG towers since scavengers mostly use machine-guns.
camBalance.wz
(110.26 KiB) Downloaded 15 times

alfred007
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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Post by alfred007 » 22 Jun 2018, 19:28

Berserk Cyborg wrote:What I did was set this up exactly how multiplayer does it. Defined "ALL ROUNDER" and remove "ANTI AIRCRAFT" from the modifier files. That way the anti-aircraft modifiers don't override all-rounder modifiers.
I don't know what happens to the AA weapons if they have no modifier but maybe we can solve the problem by giving the AA weapons the weaponEffect ALL ROUNDER and give the lift modifier the value 110 of the ANTI AIRCRAFT weaponEffect. Cannons can't shoot at VTOL in the air and AA weapons don't attack ground units so that the other modifiers get ignored by them. This way we have a modifier for the AA weapons and the anti-aircraft modifiers don't override all-rounder modifiers. And because the situation that cannons shot at VTOL's on the ground is so rare that the changed lift modifier will have no remarkable effect on gameplay.

Bethrezen
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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Post by Bethrezen » 23 Jun 2018, 12:24

You suggested a damage of 30 and a ROF of 60 for the light cannon what results in a base damage per minute (before enemy armour) or 1800. If we say the heavy cannon should have the same base damage per minute (before enemy armour) you can to give the heavy cannon, for example, a damage of 90 with a ROF of 20.
One small problem with doing that when you look at what the default base damage for the Heavy Machinegun, Light cannon, Medium cannon and Heavy cannon which are

Heavy machinegun 18
Light cannon is 30
Medium cannon is 45
Heavy cannon is 70

Then you calculate out what the difference between them is as a percentage you can see that

The difference between the Heavy machinegun and Light cannon is 12 which as a percentage makes the light cannon about 33% stronger then the Heavy machinegun

The difference between the Light cannon and Medium cannon is 15 which as a percentage makes the Medium cannon about 33% stronger then the Light cannon

The difference between the difference between the Medium cannon and Heavy cannon is 25 which as a percentage makes the Heavy cannon about 35% stronger then the Medium cannon.

So in order to reasonably maintain the balance between them while at the same time dealing with them being underpowered we can't do what you are proposing because in order to reasonably maintain a similar curve between the Heavy Machinegun, Light cannon, Medium cannon and Heavy cannon each needs to be between 20% and 30% stronger then the previous one

So the light cannon needs to be between 20% and 30% stronger than the Heavy machinegun the medium cannon needs to be between 20% and 30% stronger than the light cannon and the heavy cannon needs to be between 20% and 30% stronger than the medium cannon.

Now by leaving the default base damage and simply increasing the rates of fire that can be achieved reasonably easily, this does however present a problem in that part of the reason that cannons are underpowered is that the base damage on them is a bit low as compared to lancers for example which start with a default base damage of 160 as compared to the heavy cannons default base damage of 70

Plus as you pointed out if you only increase the rate of fire than that could potentially cause issues later on more over as weapons with high rate of fire but low damage per shot are more affected by damage reduction modifiers then that could leave the light and medium cannons a little weak.

So what about this for the light cannon instead of increasing the rate of fire to 60 we only increase it to say 45 and then we increase the base damage a touch till it gets to a good spot, for the medium cannon we increase the rate of fire to 30 and then adjust its base damage accordingly and for the heavy cannon we give it a rate of fire of 15 and again increase the base damage accordingly.

that should i think achieve all are aims here without causing problems later on.
One minor thing: In your last post you showed the armour of the Cobra body and that is the body of the project, not of the NP. If your interested, I extracted the armours of all bodies (without any armour upgrades) from the code and can post it here.
oops, but in the grand scheme of things it doesn't really matter since i was simply trying to illustrate a point that while in theory the math might suggest that things end up OP that's not necessarily the case because there are a lot of factors that can determine how powerful weapons are like for example accuracy which can have a big impact, i mean just take a look at the theoretical damage for the mini rocket according to the theoretical math the mini rocket does over 4000 per minute but of course if you have ever used mini rockets then you will know they don't do any where close to that much damage per minute and actually they are weaker then heavy machine-guns.

besides even if things went a little sideways down the line its not particularly difficult to deal with because you can simply reduce the upgrades slightly so they give a slightly smaller boost on beta so instead of the cannon damage upgrade giving a 30% increase you could reduce it to 20% which would curb the problem nicely and even if it didn't then we could always just tweak values down by a couple of points so its not a big issue and to be honest I wouldn't even worry about beta for now we can deal with that once we get there.
I don't know what happens to the AA weapons if they have no modifier
While like you I'm not sure what would happen I'd assume that it would probably be something like

100% damage x rate of fire - armour

because ultimately the damage calculation is still being done its just that the end value of that calculation is the one that is used instead of being further modified, and then having the modified value be used if that makes any sense.

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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Post by Bethrezen » 23 Jun 2018, 14:05

Ok so having some issue with the game crashing, not sure if its just an issue with this version of master or something funny with the mod but though i'd report it anyway coz clearly something is going on it doesn't like.

here's the crash dump

Code: Select all

-------------------

Error occurred on Saturday, June 23, 2018 at 12:26:16.

Program: C:\Documents and Settings\<user name>\Desktop\Warzone 2100_portable-master\warzone2100_portable.exe(warzone2100)
Command line: "C:\Documents and Settings\<user name>\Desktop\Warzone 2100_portable-master\warzone2100_portable.exe" 
Version: Version: master ab17b9b, Built:Feb  4 2018
Distributor: buildbot
Compiled on: Feb  4 2018 05:32:34
Compiled by: GCC 4.9.3
Compiled mode: Release build
Executed on: Sat Jun 23 12:09:49 2018

Pointers: 32bit

Compiled against PhysicsFS version: 2.0.3
Running with PhysicsFS version: 2.0.3

Misc Data:
[12:09:49]mod: campaignMaster + rules + camBalance.wz
[12:09:49]mod: campaignMaster + rules + camBalance.wz
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[12:09:49]mod: campaignMaster + rules + camBalance.wz
[12:09:49]mod: campaignMaster + rules + camBalance.wz
[12:09:50]Video Mode 800 x 600 (fullscreen)
[12:09:50]OpenGL Vendor: NVIDIA Corporation
[12:09:50]OpenGL Renderer: GeForce 9500 GT/PCIe/SSE2
[12:09:50]OpenGL Version: 3.3.0
[12:09:50]GLEW Version: 1.12.0
[12:09:50]OpenGL GLSL Version : 3.30 NVIDIA via Cg compiler
[12:09:50]OpenAL Device Name: OpenAL Soft
[12:09:50]OpenAL Vendor: OpenAL Community
[12:09:50]OpenAL Version: 1.1 ALSOFT 1.16.0
[12:09:50]OpenAL Renderer: OpenAL Soft
[12:09:50]OpenAL Extensions: AL_EXT_ALAW AL_EXT_DOUBLE AL_EXT_EXPONENT_DISTANCE AL_EXT_FLOAT32 AL_EXT_IMA4 AL_EXT_LINEAR_DISTANCE AL_EXT_MCFORMATS AL_EXT_MULAW AL_EXT_MULAW_MCFORMATS AL_EXT_OFFSET AL_EXT_source_distance_model AL_LOKI_quadriphonic AL_SOFT_block_alignment AL_SOFT_buffer_samples AL_SOFT_buffer_sub_data AL_SOFT_deferred_updates AL_SOFT_direct_channels AL_SOFT_loop_points AL_SOFT_MSADPCM AL_SOFT_source_latency AL_SOFT_source_length
[12:09:50]Using Backend: SDL
[12:09:50]Using language: System locale
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[12:09:57]Current Level/map is SUB_1_1
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[12:10:33]Current Level/map is SUB_1_2
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[12:12:33]Current Level/map is SUB_1_2
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[12:17:16]Current Level/map is SUB_1_2S
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[12:24:05]Current Level/map is SUB_1_2S
[12:24:16]mod: campaignMaster + rules + camBalance.wz
[12:24:16]mod: campaignMaster + rules + camBalance.wz
[12:24:16]mod: campaignMaster + rules + camBalance.wz
[12:24:16]mod: campaignMaster + rules + camBalance.wz
[12:24:16]Current Level/map is SUB_1_2
[12:26:14]mod: campaignMaster + rules + camBalance.wz
[12:26:14]mod: campaignMaster + rules + camBalance.wz
[12:26:14]mod: campaignMaster + rules + camBalance.wz
[12:26:14]mod: campaignMaster + rules + camBalance.wz
[12:26:14]mod: campaignMaster + rules + camBalance.wz
[12:26:14]mod: campaignMaster + rules + camBalance.wz
[12:26:14]mod: campaignMaster + rules + camBalance.wz
[12:26:14]mod: campaignMaster + rules + camBalance.wz


C:\Documents and Settings\<user name>\Desktop\Warzone 2100_portable-master\warzone2100_portable.exe caused an Access Violation at location 7c910cce in module C:\WINDOWS\system32\ntdll.dll Reading from location 00000007.

Log message: info    |12:11:39: [triggerEventSeen:1364] Scripts not initialized yet
Log message: info    |12:11:39: [triggerEventSeen:1364] Assert in Warzone: qtscript.cpp:1364 (scriptsReady), last script event: '<none>'
Log message: info    |12:11:39: [triggerEventSeen:1364] Scripts not initialized yet
Log message: info    |12:11:39: [triggerEventSeen:1364] Assert in Warzone: qtscript.cpp:1364 (scriptsReady), last script event: '<none>'
Log message: info    |12:12:32: [triggerEventSeen:1364] Scripts not initialized yet
Log message: info    |12:12:32: [triggerEventSeen:1364] Assert in Warzone: qtscript.cpp:1364 (scriptsReady), last script event: '<none>'
Log message: info    |12:12:32: [triggerEventSeen:1364] Scripts not initialized yet
Log message: info    |12:12:32: [triggerEventSeen:1364] Assert in Warzone: qtscript.cpp:1364 (scriptsReady), last script event: '<none>'
Log message: info    |12:16:38: [triggerEventSeen:1364] Scripts not initialized yet
Log message: info    |12:16:38: [triggerEventSeen:1364] Assert in Warzone: qtscript.cpp:1364 (scriptsReady), last script event: '<none>'
Log message: info    |12:16:38: [triggerEventSeen:1364] Scripts not initialized yet
Log message: info    |12:16:38: [triggerEventSeen:1364] Assert in Warzone: qtscript.cpp:1364 (scriptsReady), last script event: '<none>'
Log message: info    |12:23:25: [triggerEventSeen:1364] Scripts not initialized yet
Log message: info    |12:23:25: [triggerEventSeen:1364] Assert in Warzone: qtscript.cpp:1364 (scriptsReady), last script event: '<none>'
Log message: info    |12:23:25: [triggerEventSeen:1364] Scripts not initialized yet
Log message: info    |12:23:25: [triggerEventSeen:1364] Assert in Warzone: qtscript.cpp:1364 (scriptsReady), last script event: '<none>'
Log message: info    |12:24:16: [triggerEventSeen:1364] Scripts not initialized yet
Log message: info    |12:24:16: [triggerEventSeen:1364] Assert in Warzone: qtscript.cpp:1364 (scriptsReady), last script event: '<none>'
Log message: info    |12:24:16: [triggerEventSeen:1364] Scripts not initialized yet
Log message: info    |12:24:16: [triggerEventSeen:1364] Assert in Warzone: qtscript.cpp:1364 (scriptsReady), last script event: '<none>'

Registers:
eax=00000007 ebx=10d00000 ecx=1d068540 edx=10d00178 esi=1d068538 edi=00000001
eip=7c910cce esp=0022e498 ebp=0022e6b8 iopl=0         nv up ei pl nz ac pe nc
cs=001b  ss=0023  ds=0023  es=0023  fs=003b  gs=0000             efl=00010212

Call stack:
7C910CCE  C:\WINDOWS\system32\ntdll.dll:7C910CCE  wcsncpy
77C2C3C9  C:\WINDOWS\system32\msvcrt.dll:77C2C3C9  free
77C2C3E7  C:\WINDOWS\system32\msvcrt.dll:77C2C3E7  free
77C2C42E  C:\WINDOWS\system32\msvcrt.dll:77C2C42E  malloc
0140952A  C:\Documents and Settings\<user name>\Desktop\Warzone 2100_portable-master\warzone2100_portable.exe:0140952A  L‹…Ò…¨
155893C0
1DE4EF50
013172A0  C:\Documents and Settings\<user name>\Desktop\Warzone 2100_portable-master\warzone2100_portable.exe:013172A0  QList<int>::detach  /home/warzone2100/mxe_jan2016/usr/i686-w64-mingw32.static/qt5/include/QtCore/qlist.h:159
83CF8953


-------------------

Error occurred on Saturday, June 23, 2018 at 12:40:18.

Program: C:\Documents and Settings\<user name>\Desktop\Warzone 2100_portable-master\warzone2100_portable.exe(warzone2100)
Command line: "C:\Documents and Settings\<user name>\Desktop\Warzone 2100_portable-master\warzone2100_portable.exe" 
Version: Version: master ab17b9b, Built:Feb  4 2018
Distributor: buildbot
Compiled on: Feb  4 2018 05:32:34
Compiled by: GCC 4.9.3
Compiled mode: Release build
Executed on: Sat Jun 23 12:26:21 2018

Pointers: 32bit

Compiled against PhysicsFS version: 2.0.3
Running with PhysicsFS version: 2.0.3

Misc Data:
[12:26:21]mod: campaignMaster + rules + camBalance.wz
[12:26:21]mod: campaignMaster + rules + camBalance.wz
[12:26:21]mod: campaignMaster + rules + camBalance.wz
[12:26:21]mod: campaignMaster + rules + camBalance.wz
[12:26:21]mod: campaignMaster + rules + camBalance.wz
[12:26:21]mod: campaignMaster + rules + camBalance.wz
[12:26:21]mod: campaignMaster + rules + camBalance.wz
[12:26:21]mod: campaignMaster + rules + camBalance.wz
[12:26:21]mod: campaignMaster + rules + camBalance.wz
[12:26:21]mod: campaignMaster + rules + camBalance.wz
[12:26:22]Video Mode 800 x 600 (fullscreen)
[12:26:22]OpenGL Vendor: NVIDIA Corporation
[12:26:22]OpenGL Renderer: GeForce 9500 GT/PCIe/SSE2
[12:26:22]OpenGL Version: 3.3.0
[12:26:22]GLEW Version: 1.12.0
[12:26:22]OpenGL GLSL Version : 3.30 NVIDIA via Cg compiler
[12:26:22]OpenAL Device Name: OpenAL Soft
[12:26:22]OpenAL Vendor: OpenAL Community
[12:26:22]OpenAL Version: 1.1 ALSOFT 1.16.0
[12:26:22]OpenAL Renderer: OpenAL Soft
[12:26:22]OpenAL Extensions: AL_EXT_ALAW AL_EXT_DOUBLE AL_EXT_EXPONENT_DISTANCE AL_EXT_FLOAT32 AL_EXT_IMA4 AL_EXT_LINEAR_DISTANCE AL_EXT_MCFORMATS AL_EXT_MULAW AL_EXT_MULAW_MCFORMATS AL_EXT_OFFSET AL_EXT_source_distance_model AL_LOKI_quadriphonic AL_SOFT_block_alignment AL_SOFT_buffer_samples AL_SOFT_buffer_sub_data AL_SOFT_deferred_updates AL_SOFT_direct_channels AL_SOFT_loop_points AL_SOFT_MSADPCM AL_SOFT_source_latency AL_SOFT_source_length
[12:26:22]Using Backend: SDL
[12:26:22]Using language: System locale
[12:26:26]mod: campaignMaster + rules + camBalance.wz
[12:26:26]mod: campaignMaster + rules + camBalance.wz
[12:26:26]mod: campaignMaster + rules + camBalance.wz
[12:26:26]mod: campaignMaster + rules + camBalance.wz
[12:26:28]Current Level/map is SUB_1_2S
[12:26:38]mod: campaignMaster + rules + camBalance.wz
[12:26:38]mod: campaignMaster + rules + camBalance.wz
[12:26:38]mod: campaignMaster + rules + camBalance.wz
[12:26:38]mod: campaignMaster + rules + camBalance.wz
[12:26:39]Current Level/map is SUB_1_2
[12:39:18]mod: campaignMaster + rules + camBalance.wz
[12:39:18]mod: campaignMaster + rules + camBalance.wz
[12:39:18]mod: campaignMaster + rules + camBalance.wz
[12:39:18]mod: campaignMaster + rules + camBalance.wz
[12:39:18]mod: campaignMaster + rules + camBalance.wz
[12:39:18]mod: campaignMaster + rules + camBalance.wz
[12:39:18]mod: campaignMaster + rules + camBalance.wz
[12:39:18]mod: campaignMaster + rules + camBalance.wz
[12:39:20]Current Level/map is SUB_1_2
[12:40:16]mod: campaignMaster + rules + camBalance.wz
[12:40:16]mod: campaignMaster + rules + camBalance.wz
[12:40:16]mod: campaignMaster + rules + camBalance.wz
[12:40:16]mod: campaignMaster + rules + camBalance.wz
[12:40:16]mod: campaignMaster + rules + camBalance.wz
[12:40:16]mod: campaignMaster + rules + camBalance.wz
[12:40:16]mod: campaignMaster + rules + camBalance.wz
[12:40:16]mod: campaignMaster + rules + camBalance.wz


C:\Documents and Settings\<user name>\Desktop\Warzone 2100_portable-master\warzone2100_portable.exe caused an Access Violation at location 004f3c23 in module C:\Documents and Settings\<user name>\Desktop\Warzone 2100_portable-master\warzone2100_portable.exe Writing to location 16bbe02b.

Log message: info    |12:26:38: [triggerEventSeen:1364] Scripts not initialized yet
Log message: info    |12:26:38: [triggerEventSeen:1364] Assert in Warzone: qtscript.cpp:1364 (scriptsReady), last script event: '<none>'
Log message: info    |12:26:38: [triggerEventSeen:1364] Scripts not initialized yet
Log message: info    |12:26:38: [triggerEventSeen:1364] Assert in Warzone: qtscript.cpp:1364 (scriptsReady), last script event: '<none>'

Registers:
eax=1c739d0c ebx=00000000 ecx=16bbdfe8 edx=00000043 esi=00000000 edi=16985eb8
eip=004f3c23 esp=0022eeac ebp=0022efe4 iopl=0         nv up ei pl nz na pe nc
cs=001b  ss=0023  ds=0023  es=0023  fs=003b  gs=0000             efl=00010202

Call stack:
004F3C23  C:\Documents and Settings\<user name>\Desktop\Warzone 2100_portable-master\warzone2100_portable.exe:004F3C23  researchResult  /home/buildbot/slaves/warzone2100/master-nightly/build/src/research.cpp:557
00457CC4  C:\Documents and Settings\<user name>\Desktop\Warzone 2100_portable-master\warzone2100_portable.exe:00457CC4  loadGame  /home/buildbot/slaves/warzone2100/master-nightly/build/src/game.cpp:6152
0047754C  C:\Documents and Settings\<user name>\Desktop\Warzone 2100_portable-master\warzone2100_portable.exe:0047754C  levLoadData  /home/buildbot/slaves/warzone2100/master-nightly/build/src/levels.cpp:880
0044C9D7  C:\Documents and Settings\<user name>\Desktop\Warzone 2100_portable-master\warzone2100_portable.exe:0044C9D7  gameLoad  /home/buildbot/slaves/warzone2100/master-nightly/build/src/game.cpp:3742
0044D0D8  C:\Documents and Settings\<user name>\Desktop\Warzone 2100_portable-master\warzone2100_portable.exe:0044D0D8  loadGameInit  /home/buildbot/slaves/warzone2100/master-nightly/build/src/game.cpp:1638
0047BD6E  C:\Documents and Settings\<user name>\Desktop\Warzone 2100_portable-master\warzone2100_portable.exe:0047BD6E  initSaveGameLoad  /home/buildbot/slaves/warzone2100/master-nightly/build/src/main.cpp:626
0047C09B  C:\Documents and Settings\<user name>\Desktop\Warzone 2100_portable-master\warzone2100_portable.exe:0047C09B  mainLoop  /home/buildbot/slaves/warzone2100/master-nightly/build/src/main.cpp:676
005923B5  C:\Documents and Settings\<user name>\Desktop\Warzone 2100_portable-master\warzone2100_portable.exe:005923B5  wzMainEventLoop  /home/buildbot/slaves/warzone2100/master-nightly/build/lib/sdl/main_sdl.cpp:1552
0047D819  C:\Documents and Settings\<user name>\Desktop\Warzone 2100_portable-master\warzone2100_portable.exe:0047D819  realmain  /home/buildbot/slaves/warzone2100/master-nightly/build/src/main.cpp:1096
005C59AC  C:\Documents and Settings\<user name>\Desktop\Warzone 2100_portable-master\warzone2100_portable.exe:005C59AC


-------------------

Error occurred on Saturday, June 23, 2018 at 12:59:24.

Program: C:\Documents and Settings\<user name>\Desktop\Warzone 2100_portable-master\warzone2100_portable.exe(warzone2100)
Command line: "C:\Documents and Settings\<user name>\Desktop\Warzone 2100_portable-master\warzone2100_portable.exe" 
Version: Version: master ab17b9b, Built:Feb  4 2018
Distributor: buildbot
Compiled on: Feb  4 2018 05:32:34
Compiled by: GCC 4.9.3
Compiled mode: Release build
Executed on: Sat Jun 23 12:40:23 2018

Pointers: 32bit

Compiled against PhysicsFS version: 2.0.3
Running with PhysicsFS version: 2.0.3

Misc Data:
[12:40:24]mod: campaignMaster + rules + camBalance.wz
[12:40:24]mod: campaignMaster + rules + camBalance.wz
[12:40:24]mod: campaignMaster + rules + camBalance.wz
[12:40:24]mod: campaignMaster + rules + camBalance.wz
[12:40:24]mod: campaignMaster + rules + camBalance.wz
[12:40:24]mod: campaignMaster + rules + camBalance.wz
[12:40:24]mod: campaignMaster + rules + camBalance.wz
[12:40:24]mod: campaignMaster + rules + camBalance.wz
[12:40:24]mod: campaignMaster + rules + camBalance.wz
[12:40:24]mod: campaignMaster + rules + camBalance.wz
[12:40:24]Video Mode 800 x 600 (fullscreen)
[12:40:24]OpenGL Vendor: NVIDIA Corporation
[12:40:24]OpenGL Renderer: GeForce 9500 GT/PCIe/SSE2
[12:40:24]OpenGL Version: 3.3.0
[12:40:24]GLEW Version: 1.12.0
[12:40:24]OpenGL GLSL Version : 3.30 NVIDIA via Cg compiler
[12:40:24]OpenAL Device Name: OpenAL Soft
[12:40:24]OpenAL Vendor: OpenAL Community
[12:40:24]OpenAL Version: 1.1 ALSOFT 1.16.0
[12:40:24]OpenAL Renderer: OpenAL Soft
[12:40:24]OpenAL Extensions: AL_EXT_ALAW AL_EXT_DOUBLE AL_EXT_EXPONENT_DISTANCE AL_EXT_FLOAT32 AL_EXT_IMA4 AL_EXT_LINEAR_DISTANCE AL_EXT_MCFORMATS AL_EXT_MULAW AL_EXT_MULAW_MCFORMATS AL_EXT_OFFSET AL_EXT_source_distance_model AL_LOKI_quadriphonic AL_SOFT_block_alignment AL_SOFT_buffer_samples AL_SOFT_buffer_sub_data AL_SOFT_deferred_updates AL_SOFT_direct_channels AL_SOFT_loop_points AL_SOFT_MSADPCM AL_SOFT_source_latency AL_SOFT_source_length
[12:40:24]Using Backend: SDL
[12:40:24]Using language: System locale
[12:40:27]mod: campaignMaster + rules + camBalance.wz
[12:40:27]mod: campaignMaster + rules + camBalance.wz
[12:40:27]mod: campaignMaster + rules + camBalance.wz
[12:40:27]mod: campaignMaster + rules + camBalance.wz
[12:40:29]Current Level/map is SUB_1_2
[12:41:34]mod: campaignMaster + rules + camBalance.wz
[12:41:34]mod: campaignMaster + rules + camBalance.wz
[12:41:34]mod: campaignMaster + rules + camBalance.wz
[12:41:34]mod: campaignMaster + rules + camBalance.wz
[12:41:34]mod: campaignMaster + rules + camBalance.wz
[12:41:34]mod: campaignMaster + rules + camBalance.wz
[12:41:34]mod: campaignMaster + rules + camBalance.wz
[12:41:34]mod: campaignMaster + rules + camBalance.wz
[12:41:37]Current Level/map is SUB_1_2
[12:41:58]mod: campaignMaster + rules + camBalance.wz
[12:41:58]mod: campaignMaster + rules + camBalance.wz
[12:41:58]mod: campaignMaster + rules + camBalance.wz
[12:41:58]mod: campaignMaster + rules + camBalance.wz
[12:41:58]mod: campaignMaster + rules + camBalance.wz
[12:41:58]mod: campaignMaster + rules + camBalance.wz
[12:41:58]mod: campaignMaster + rules + camBalance.wz
[12:41:58]mod: campaignMaster + rules + camBalance.wz
[12:42:00]Current Level/map is SUB_1_2
[12:58:40]mod: campaignMaster + rules + camBalance.wz
[12:58:40]mod: campaignMaster + rules + camBalance.wz
[12:58:40]mod: campaignMaster + rules + camBalance.wz
[12:58:40]mod: campaignMaster + rules + camBalance.wz
[12:58:40]Current Level/map is SUB_1_3S


C:\Documents and Settings\<user name>\Desktop\Warzone 2100_portable-master\warzone2100_portable.exe caused an Access Violation at location 00599b90 in module C:\Documents and Settings\<user name>\Desktop\Warzone 2100_portable-master\warzone2100_portable.exe Reading from location 30282349.


Registers:
eax=3028233d ebx=3028233d ecx=77c2c2e3 edx=10d00608 esi=00000000 edi=1149b908
eip=00599b90 esp=0022efec ebp=0022f004 iopl=0         nv up ei pl nz ac pe nc
cs=001b  ss=0023  ds=0023  es=0023  fs=003b  gs=0000             efl=00010212

Call stack:
00599B90  C:\Documents and Settings\<user name>\Desktop\Warzone 2100_portable-master\warzone2100_portable.exe:00599B90  treapDestroyRec  /home/buildbot/slaves/warzone2100/master-nightly/build/lib/framework/treap.cpp:250
00599B98  C:\Documents and Settings\<user name>\Desktop\Warzone 2100_portable-master\warzone2100_portable.exe:00599B98  treapDestroyRec  /home/buildbot/slaves/warzone2100/master-nightly/build/lib/framework/treap.cpp:251
00599BA0  C:\Documents and Settings\<user name>\Desktop\Warzone 2100_portable-master\warzone2100_portable.exe:00599BA0  treapDestroyRec  /home/buildbot/slaves/warzone2100/master-nightly/build/lib/framework/treap.cpp:254
00599BA0  C:\Documents and Settings\<user name>\Desktop\Warzone 2100_portable-master\warzone2100_portable.exe:00599BA0  treapDestroyRec  /home/buildbot/slaves/warzone2100/master-nightly/build/lib/framework/treap.cpp:254
00599B98  C:\Documents and Settings\<user name>\Desktop\Warzone 2100_portable-master\warzone2100_portable.exe:00599B98  treapDestroyRec  /home/buildbot/slaves/warzone2100/master-nightly/build/lib/framework/treap.cpp:251
00599B98  C:\Documents and Settings\<user name>\Desktop\Warzone 2100_portable-master\warzone2100_portable.exe:00599B98  treapDestroyRec  /home/buildbot/slaves/warzone2100/master-nightly/build/lib/framework/treap.cpp:251
00599B98  C:\Documents and Settings\<user name>\Desktop\Warzone 2100_portable-master\warzone2100_portable.exe:00599B98  treapDestroyRec  /home/buildbot/slaves/warzone2100/master-nightly/build/lib/framework/treap.cpp:251
00599BA0  C:\Documents and Settings\<user name>\Desktop\Warzone 2100_portable-master\warzone2100_portable.exe:00599BA0  treapDestroyRec  /home/buildbot/slaves/warzone2100/master-nightly/build/lib/framework/treap.cpp:254
00599BA0  C:\Documents and Settings\<user name>\Desktop\Warzone 2100_portable-master\warzone2100_portable.exe:00599BA0  treapDestroyRec  /home/buildbot/slaves/warzone2100/master-nightly/build/lib/framework/treap.cpp:254
00599BA0  C:\Documents and Settings\<user name>\Desktop\Warzone 2100_portable-master\warzone2100_portable.exe:00599BA0  treapDestroyRec  /home/buildbot/slaves/warzone2100/master-nightly/build/lib/framework/treap.cpp:254
00599B98  C:\Documents and Settings\<user name>\Desktop\Warzone 2100_portable-master\warzone2100_portable.exe:00599B98  treapDestroyRec  /home/buildbot/slaves/warzone2100/master-nightly/build/lib/framework/treap.cpp:251
00599ECB  C:\Documents and Settings\<user name>\Desktop\Warzone 2100_portable-master\warzone2100_portable.exe:00599ECB  treapDestroy  /home/buildbot/slaves/warzone2100/master-nightly/build/lib/framework/treap.cpp:264
00598824  C:\Documents and Settings\<user name>\Desktop\Warzone 2100_portable-master\warzone2100_portable.exe:00598824  strresDestroy  /home/buildbot/slaves/warzone2100/master-nightly/build/lib/framework/strres.cpp:73
004166E2  C:\Documents and Settings\<user name>\Desktop\Warzone 2100_portable-master\warzone2100_portable.exe:004166E2  dataStrResRelease  /home/buildbot/slaves/warzone2100/master-nightly/build/src/data.cpp:590
00596233  C:\Documents and Settings\<user name>\Desktop\Warzone 2100_portable-master\warzone2100_portable.exe:00596233  resReleaseBlockData  /home/buildbot/slaves/warzone2100/master-nightly/build/lib/framework/frameresource.cpp:838
004767DD  C:\Documents and Settings\<user name>\Desktop\Warzone 2100_portable-master\warzone2100_portable.exe:004767DD  levReleaseAll  /home/buildbot/slaves/warzone2100/master-nightly/build/src/levels.cpp:546
004768F8  C:\Documents and Settings\<user name>\Desktop\Warzone 2100_portable-master\warzone2100_portable.exe:004768F8  levLoadData  /home/buildbot/slaves/warzone2100/master-nightly/build/src/levels.cpp:622
0044C9D7  C:\Documents and Settings\<user name>\Desktop\Warzone 2100_portable-master\warzone2100_portable.exe:0044C9D7  gameLoad  /home/buildbot/slaves/warzone2100/master-nightly/build/src/game.cpp:3742
0044D0D8  C:\Documents and Settings\<user name>\Desktop\Warzone 2100_portable-master\warzone2100_portable.exe:0044D0D8  loadGameInit  /home/buildbot/slaves/warzone2100/master-nightly/build/src/game.cpp:1638
0047BD6E  C:\Documents and Settings\<user name>\Desktop\Warzone 2100_portable-master\warzone2100_portable.exe:0047BD6E  initSaveGameLoad  /home/buildbot/slaves/warzone2100/master-nightly/build/src/main.cpp:626
0047C09B  C:\Documents and Settings\<user name>\Desktop\Warzone 2100_portable-master\warzone2100_portable.exe:0047C09B  mainLoop  /home/buildbot/slaves/warzone2100/master-nightly/build/src/main.cpp:676
005923B5  C:\Documents and Settings\<user name>\Desktop\Warzone 2100_portable-master\warzone2100_portable.exe:005923B5  wzMainEventLoop  /home/buildbot/slaves/warzone2100/master-nightly/build/lib/sdl/main_sdl.cpp:1552
0047D819  C:\Documents and Settings\<user name>\Desktop\Warzone 2100_portable-master\warzone2100_portable.exe:0047D819  realmain  /home/buildbot/slaves/warzone2100/master-nightly/build/src/main.cpp:1096
005C59AC  C:\Documents and Settings\<user name>\Desktop\Warzone 2100_portable-master\warzone2100_portable.exe:005C59AC

alfred007
Trained
Trained
Posts: 408
Joined: 31 Jul 2016, 06:25
Location: Stuttgart, Germany

Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Post by alfred007 » 23 Jun 2018, 15:39

Bethrezen wrote:Heavy machinegun 18
Light cannon is 30
Medium cannon is 45
Heavy cannon is 70

Then you calculate out what the difference between them is as a percentage you can see that

The difference between the Heavy machinegun and Light cannon is 12 which as a percentage makes the light cannon about 33% stronger then the Heavy machinegun

The difference between the Light cannon and Medium cannon is 15 which as a percentage makes the Medium cannon about 33% stronger then the Light cannon

The difference between the difference between the Medium cannon and Heavy cannon is 25 which as a percentage makes the Heavy cannon about 35% stronger then the Medium cannon.
Arguing with percentage can be a little tricky. When the light cannon has a damage of 30 and the medium cannon has a damage of 45, the medium cannon is 50 % stronger than the light cannon (15 / 30 = 50 %) or the light cannon is 33 % weaker than the medium cannon (15 / 45 = 33 %). I know what you mean but not everybody is good at math and you could be misunderstood if you don't take care.
Bethrezen wrote:So in order to reasonably maintain the balance between them while at the same time dealing with them being underpowered we can't do what you are proposing because in order to reasonably maintain a similar curve between the Heavy Machinegun, Light cannon, Medium cannon and Heavy cannon each needs to be between 20% and 30% stronger then the previous one
That's something we can do but it is no dogma. I think only a few players will ever look into the code and even fewer player will calculate the base damage per minute of a weapon. So if it is easier for us for balancing we shouldn't hesitate to give each cannon the same base damage per minute and change only base damage and ROF.
Bethrezen wrote:So what about this for the light cannon instead of increasing the rate of fire to 60 we only increase it to say 45 and then we increase the base damage a touch till it gets to a good spot, for the medium cannon we increase the rate of fire to 30 and then adjust its base damage accordingly and for the heavy cannon we give it a rate of fire of 15 and again increase the base damage accordingly.
Even that I gave every cannon the same base damage per minute I ask you to give my suggested values a go. If you say for example the light cannon is too weak I have no problem to change it and calculate new values with your suggested ROF's. But I want to see if my calculation is not only working on paper but also in the game. If I calculated right we can save a lot of time because calculating values needs less time than changing values and test it in the game. Especially for issues we would find a few levels later on.

Bethrezen
Regular
Regular
Posts: 584
Joined: 25 Sep 2009, 02:05

Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Post by Bethrezen » 23 Jun 2018, 16:50

ok so just given the latest iteration a go.

Mortars seem fine against the new paradigm structure with 2 damage upgrades.

The light cannon however is a different story with only 1 damage upgrade and a base damage of just 20 which gives it a per shot damage of 26 the light cannon feels a bit weak, and doesn't even seem to perform as well as heavy machine-guns.

so I had a little tinker around and a base damage of 40 and a rate of fire of 35 (fire pause 17) seemed reasonable, now I realise that with upgrade of 30% that is probably going to make the light cannon a little to strong with 3 damage upgrade so what if we reduced the cannon upgrades for the light cannon from 30% to 20%.

With 1 upgrade that would give the light cannon an attack power of 48 and a rate of fire of 35 and actually that feels quiet reasonable to me, the damage is enough that you aren't spending 50 years trying to blow things up but it's still weak enough that against the new paradigms medium units you are still at a disadvantage and you feel it because it takes many more hits to put them out of action.

As for flamers they are still completely useless against anything but scav's or the new paradigms lightest units, i sent 18 of them against there defences and they couldn't even destroy 1 turret before the whole squad was dead.

a damage value of 27 and a hard modifier of 20 isn't anywhere near enough.

With a damage value of 27 I had to increase the modifier for hard structures to 100 before they came anywhere close to doing enough damage that they where able to actually destroy there hard points and even then it was still slow as hell.

I then had an experiment around to see what damage it would take with a hard modifier of 20 to achieve the same result and i had to push there damage up to around 85 before they where able to do enough damage that they where actually able to destroy there hard points and again even then it was slow as hell.

so yeah if flamers are going to maintain there usefulness past alpha 4 they need something like a 200% buff because currently they are completely useless.

Bethrezen
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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Post by Bethrezen » 23 Jun 2018, 16:56

Even that I gave every cannon the same base damage per minute I ask you to give my suggested values a go.
so what values are you suggesting for the light cannon because I'm not really sure ?
Arguing with percentage can be a little tricky. When the light cannon has a damage of 30 and the medium cannon has a damage of 45, the medium cannon is 50 % stronger than the light cannon (15 / 30 = 50 %) or the light cannon is 33 % weaker than the medium cannon (15 / 45 = 33 %). I know what you mean but not everybody is good at math and you could be misunderstood if you don't take care
Maybe so but the thing of it is that other people don’t really need to understand it since there are only 3 of us working on this anyway, and its enough that I'm able to get the point that I'm trying to make across.

I mean to be honest this is why I don’t generally bother with the math, I'd rather just use the default values as my staring point and then tinker with the values till i get an experience that feels reasonable, because there are to many factors to consider and that can make the math rather complicated and ultimatum my way is far simpler and in general provides provide better feed back anyway

if you have an understanding of the math then that helps obviously but its not necessary as long as you know a few key details if you know those then you can make reasonably accurate educated guesses about what the values should be .

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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Post by alfred007 » 23 Jun 2018, 17:13

Bethrezen wrote:
Even that I gave every cannon the same base damage per minute I ask you to give my suggested values a go.
so what values are you suggesting for the light cannon because I'm not really sure ?
Look here. Berserk Cyborg implemented them into the current camBalance Mod
Bethrezen wrote:The light cannon however is a different story with only 1 damage upgrade and a base damage of just 20 which gives it a per shot damage of 26 the light cannon feels a bit weak, and doesn't even seem to perform as well as heavy machine-guns.
As I wrote in my linked post above I wasn't sure if one damage upgrade is enough for the light cannon in alpha 04. The light cannon is doing 10% more damage than the heavy machine gun against the medium NP units but is, of course, worse against scavengers in comparison to the heavy machine gun. So we should try giving the light cannon the second damage upgrade in alpha 04. This would give the light cannon a base damage of 32 and should be good enough against scavengers and much better against NP units and turrets. And because it was planned to give the second damage to the medium cannon in alpha 06 it would make no big difference.

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