Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

[Bethrezen]

Sensor base on Alpha 02

...still doesn't seem to be clearing up completely:

Actual that one does there are scav turrets further down, along with a small bunch of units if you destroy those then the mission marker does vanish like it should.

And those are only lancers. Tank killer (and especially the VTOL weapon) is a scary thought for insane difficulty.

Lancers / Tanks Killers doesn't really make any odds going head to head still not a good idea unless you want to be taking heavy causalities, there not so bad on easier difficulties but kinda nasty on insane, which is of course why i tend to use artillery a lot.

Actually, no, I didn't (and it'd be a good thing to test when I get back to Beta 04, too). It's never come up the way I do Beta 04. With my approach, you don't need to deal with either of the bases on the stage to complete it. I'm not sure having to take those on just to stop the VTOLs is a useful trade-off - it'd mean you'd spend a lot more time on the stage and presumably you're subject to the VTOL waves until that point?

Depends, if you are doing the easy thing and simply recovering the artefact and pulling out then you are probably right.

If however you are going for the total annihilation victory then yes it is because the level is easier when you are not getting pounded from the air, and while you might be subject to air attack till you can shut them down 18 AAA will make short work of there VTOLs and positioned correctly they will never actually get anywhere near you because your AAA will have them off before they get the chance, on occasion they will try to go after your AAA but if they are built with heavy bodies and tracks then they should be sturdy enough to survive at least on the easier difficulties, not so sure about insane though haven't gotten that far yet.

The 1 exception to this is when they are using lancer/tank killer vtols in previous versions they actually had to be nurfed because they where way to powerful although if i recall that's because there was a bug that made them more powerful then they should be, I'll have to wait and see how they are now.

[Terminator]

Would love to, but don't have it. Do you know where I can get it from?
This was all under the assumption that the 2.3.8 campaign is the old WZScript version
If there's a preference or standard as to which version to compare to, I'll, of course, go with that...

http://warzone2100.pro/wzfile/ - there is a lot old files, may be there is something you can find. (a hint - you will )

Campaign has been broken for a long-long time. I insist compare to 1.10 only.
2.x.x version are broken too.

[-Philosopher-]

Sensor base on Alpha 02

...still doesn't seem to be clearing up completely:

Actual that one does there are scav turrets further down, along with a small bunch of units if you destroy those then the mission marker does vanish like it should.

Those turrets further down aren't part of the base in wzcam. I was highlighting that the definition of the base had (inadvertently) changed in the translation to jscam. I think @Beserk Cyborg is going to fix it.

[Bethrezen]

@Terminator

had a poke around there and found

http://warzone2100.pro/wzfile/wz_files/ ... _ripped.7z

trouble is doesn't appear to be a complete and it doesn't seem to work properly either.



i know the graphics on the original warzone were not exactly grate but it shouldn't look like that, my original copy on the play station didn't so clearly something isn't working properly.

[Twister22]

@Terminator

had a poke around there and found

http://warzone2100.pro/wzfile/wz_files/ ... _ripped.7z

trouble is doesn't appear to be a complete and it doesn't seem to work properly either.



i know the graphics on the original warzone were not exactly grate but it shouldn't look like that, my original copy on the play station didn't so clearly something isn't working properly.

...

[alfred007]

@ Philosopher Re: alpha 03

I think the fact that the SE group in alpha 03 didn't attack you is a result of the defences you build. I never use a truck in that level and get attacked from behind when I catched the artifact.

Regarding the timer changes, as you know I’m uncomfortable with what is, in effect, a shortening of the timer for the first away mission (I’m of the opinion the game originally tried to ease the new player into things in the first few missions). How about making it 15mins, reset to 15mins after the 1st cutscene (about researching and applying the power module tech), with no power bonus applied for finishing the first of those early? Would that be straightforward to do? That would make it more in keeping with the original.

One problem is when you build the power module during alpha 02 there will be no cutszene in alpha 03 and what then with the timer? And for the shorter time in insane difficulty I say insane is for experienced players and they should be able to handle this level even in shorter time (I.e. I did it in 6:40 including producing new units for alpha 04. And I didn't rush). For new players in normal difficulty there is no time change and in easy an extra time bonus of 25%.

[Bethrezen]

One problem is when you build the power module during alpha 02 there will be no cutscene in alpha 03 and what then with the timer?

That’s easy enough to answer give players the cut scene when they finish researching the power module tech on alpha 02, and then make building the power module a victory condition for alpha 02 instead of alpha 03.

Why do it this way? Simple consistency, no other away mission has 2 parts and alpha 3 shouldn’t either, more over it makes no sense that building the power module would be a condition for alpha 03 when you get the power module tech on alpha 02, further more the way it is now is not how the game was set up originally now i understand why it was changed because people where able to exploit the interlude as it had no timer, but the current setup isn't well though out in my opinion.

To be honest I have never understood why this portion of the game was set up the way it was originally instead of the way I have suggested because it makes no logical sense.

@Philosopher

As for the away mission for alpha 03 I'm unsure why you would have problems with that because Alpha 03 can easily be accomplished within 10 minuets on insane so 15 is more then enough to do that mission on normal, especially if you already have your away party assembled at the drop zone before ending alpha 02.

I mean anyone who has ever played warzone before will know full well that alpha 03 is an away mission so will make sure they have there away party assembled and ready to go before ending the previous mission, and its not like you don't get plenty of time on alpha 02 to get your self organised, and even if the player is a total noob they can always reload the end of alpha 02 and then get there away party ready then end alpha 02 again.

So given that I'm curious is you don't mind me asking why don't you think 15 minutes is enough for Alpha 03 ?

Alpha 12

Ok so after my last attempt at this failed I decided to try again for the umpteenth time and this time take a different tack and instead of converting all my units to hover craft I left one as half tracks, figuring that maybe that would stop the build up at there base however much to my surprise it seems that is not the case, as you can see in this screen shot.



So I'm not sure what is going on but something isn't right, admittedly the build up this time isn’t quiet as bad but that’s only because I came striate up to there base this time around instead of spending time clearing out the lower portion of the map first so the drop zone hasn’t been activated yet and neither has the factors by there HQ.

Now i know i have been having some issues with this level anyway for various reasons although seeing that build up even after I left 1 squad as half tracks specifically so that build up wouldn't happen has got me suspicious that maybe the enemy units on this level are indeed bugged.

So while I can't say conclusively that this is a bug it does strike me as a little odd, because I don't remember such a thing happening before, yeah you would get maybe 4 or 5 units usually hover craft because once you started rolling the attacks by hover craft general stopped on older versions, but nothing like that so maybe it would be an idea to give the code for alpha 12 the once over just in case to make sure everything is indeed working as intended.

Also in case it's helpful I attached my alpha 12 save as well.

[Berserk Cyborg]

pushed master 3c907bd4e4cd6290b306e847c81c060656a45fcd. In other news I can now continue on with the Gamma 7/8 scripts since I figured out how to fire the laser satellite weapon with a new script function.

[-Philosopher-]

@ Philosopher Re: alpha 03

I think the fact that the SE group in alpha 03 didn't attack you is a result of the defences you build. I never use a truck in that level and get attacked from behind when I catched the artifact.

They do attack - in both wzcam and jscam. The defences don't discourage them - they're quite happy to suicide on them in both versions. The difference is they attack in different directions and at different times, as explained in the post.

Regarding the timer changes, as you know I’m uncomfortable with what is, in effect, a shortening of the timer for the first away mission (I’m of the opinion the game originally tried to ease the new player into things in the first few missions). How about making it 15mins, reset to 15mins after the 1st cutscene (about researching and applying the power module tech), with no power bonus applied for finishing the first of those early? Would that be straightforward to do? That would make it more in keeping with the original.

One problem is when you build the power module during alpha 02 there will be no cutszene in alpha 03 and what then with the timer? And for the shorter time in insane difficulty I say insane is for experienced players and they should be able to handle this level even in shorter time (I.e. I did it in 6:40 including producing new units for alpha 04. And I didn't rush). For new players in normal difficulty there is no time change and in easy an extra time bonus of 25%.

As always, I look to how it was for the answer. In wzcam, if you've already upgraded a power station in the prior stage, it simply skips that cutscene and takes you straight onto the 15min timer.

As for the away mission for alpha 03 I'm unsure why you would have problems with that because Alpha 03 can easily be accomplished within 10 minuets on insane so 15 is more then enough to do that mission on normal, especially if you already have your away party assembled at the drop zone before ending alpha 02.

I don't have problems completing Alpha 03. It's not me I'm worried about. The game, in its original form, had generous (or indeed, no) timers for the first few stages in order to ease new folk into the game. I don't feel the current change can still be considered "generous". In wzcam, Alpha 03, the first away mission, had a (timer-free) phase so you could get organised after your last stage (prepping for future stages is something you learn to do, not start life knowing...)

I accept all the points about noobs being able to reload etc. etc. but we're not designing a new game here, we're trying to reflect - the spirit at least - of the old as closely as possible, I thought. In the original game, this stage had two parts.

Anway, this is all just a repeat of what I've explained in earlier posts so I won't go on about it further. You have my view and vote

@Beserk Cyborg. What's your view on my suggestion?

pushed master 3c907bd4e4cd6290b306e847c81c060656a45fcd. In other news I can now continue on with the Gamma 7/8 scripts since I figured out how to fire the laser satellite weapon with a new script function.

Did you make any changes to Alpha 4, 5, or 6 in this update? I've just completed a fairly detailed regression test of these. I'm sure they're probably still valid/relevant for most points I found, but if you made a lot of changes then I should probably re-do them. Otherwise, I guess as long as I'm clear which version was tested, it'd be easy enough to work out whether I'm talking about something that was subsequently addressed or not?

[-Philosopher-]

@Beserk Cyborg

I know you already explained this in a previous post, but I can't find it now for some reason So apologies for asking about what I should already know...

What's the translation between cam1-d, cam2-2, cam1-b, cam1-4a: etc. and the Alpha 02, 03, etc. that we're more commonly using?

Is there a system to it, or do you just "have to know"? I noticed the game displays which of those you're on while in a level, so I'm sure I could work it out over time, but if there's a shortcut to it, it'd be good to know.

[-Philosopher-]

Anyway, here 'tis -

Testing on Master 52db941 (19-Sep-2017)

Alpha 04

… used to be a stage where you could destroy everything and still not have the stage end (until you returned to the LZ):


Can it be made the same? It matters, IMO, because it makes it easier to accumulate experience on your units.

That said, I appreciate wzcam isn’t consistent about this - some away mission stages do end when you destroy everything - and that's "matters" in an entirely relative sense, so I don't feel strongly about it.

This level is otherwise good as far as I can tell.

Alpha 05

The Scavenger units behave differently between wzcam and jscam.

In jscam, the scavs on the hill overlooking their base in the valley floor are happy to sit in place and be bombed from afar, even if their base is being attacked (in wzcam, they would have bushwacked my artillery group by now):

In jscam, they only start to move when their base is destroyed (too late, really…):


I assume this is when the scav group in the valley to the west of the NP base also starts its attack run vs. my units in the south (in jscam). In wzcam, that same group operates as a group with the NP sensor (these units would have been long ago wiped out in jscam - here, wzcam, they are sitting in place):

They attack when something comes into their visual range. In wzcam, there’s no way I’d be able to run that lone sensor out to finish off the scav base and collect the canon tech as you can see I did in the earlier pictures of jscam. They also don’t wait to come out of the valley - in wzcam, they’re out and lurking pretty much as soon as the NP sensor heads north, if not before. The net result is it’s more difficult to acquire the cannon technology without hitting the sensor/upsetting the NP base in wzcam than it is in jscam.

The NP units behave differently too. There are two groups to consider - the commander and his entourage, and a “picket group” of three light-bodied mini-pod units.

Both groups start inside the base:


In wzcam, the picket group is already outside the base by the time you discover it - I think it heads out as soon as the sensor starts moving from the south; in jscam, the picket group only starts to leave the base when something NP-related (e.g. the sensor) is attacked:

NP seems to make units much more quickly in wzcam than jscam too.

In wzcam, the commander and his entourage sally forth the moment the base proper is attacked. In jscam, he takes a long time to decide to come out. Ergo, in jscam, artillery is left unmolested to bomb all the defences into oblivion from afar for some time, whereas in wzcam, NP tries to do something about it immediately:


The combined effect of all this is to make Alpha 05 easier in jscam than it was in wzcam.

The “return to LZ” victory condition is new in jscam as well. In wzcam, you have to destroy all the structures to finish the level (in case that matters/was an unintended change).

Alpha 06 observations, tested on Master 52db941 (19-Sep-2017), to follow when I get a chance to write it up - probably tomorrow. I'll update to 3c907bd (21-Sep-2017) now

[Berserk Cyborg]

-Philosopher-, you should copy all existing research on the differences of wzcam and jscam to a new topic in this forum: viewforum.php?f=51. Otherwise your work might get buried in this monster sized thread (and is easier to find). I still want to focus on making the campaign stable enough for all missions for the next release.

As for Alpha 3, I do not see it as an issue. It was made to prevent an exploit with oil. The player gets one transport load so this mission, in a sense, puts new players to the test regardless.

What's the translation between cam1-d, cam2-2, cam1-b, cam1-4a: etc. and the Alpha 02, 03, etc. that we're more commonly using?

Is there a system to it, or do you just "have to know"? I noticed the game displays which of those you're on while in a level, so I'm sure I could work it out over time, but if there's a shortcut to it, it'd be good to know.

It is something you would "have to know". Or maybe not, I just memorized them all as I converted them. Typically, a letter denotes a mission involving the home map (1-d/2-d break that rule). "s" denotes that the mission had a pre-away mission, so you would start on 1-1s and then go to 1-1. "end" is a pre-away mission for a campaign transition (ie Alpha to Beta).

cam...
1-a, 1-b, 1-1(s), 1-2(s), 1-3(s), 1-c, 1-ca, 1-4a(s), 1-5(s), 1a-c, 1-7(s), 1-d(s), 1-end
2-a, 2-1(s), 2-b, 2-2(s), 2-c, 2-5(s), 2-d(s), 2-6(s), 2-7(s), 2-8(s), 2-end.
3-a, 3-1(s), 3-b, 3-2(s), 3-ab, 3-c, 3-ad1, 3-ad2, 3-4(s).

You can see that numbers jump around a bit. Cool thing is that there are mission objectives for non-existent missions still in the data/base/messages/strings directory (even have a complete and unused map for 3-3 in the wrf/cam3 folder). Here are a few.

Beta 4 artifact was at one time being considered a decoy:

Code: Select all

/* Cam2_3 Search and Destroy - player ident */
CAM2_3_MSG			_("TRANSPORT MISSION: Search for and Destroy Convoy")
CAM2_3_MSG2			_("The shipment you recovered was a decoy.")
CAM2_3_MSG3			_("We have detected another convoy proceeding along the river.")

/* Cam2_3 Search and Destroy - briefing */
CAM2_3_MSG4			_("TRANSPORT MISSION: Search for and Destroy Convoy")
CAM2_3_MSG5			_("You are to intercept the convoy and recover its cargo.")
CAM2_3_MSG6			_("Enemy VTOLs are likely to be flying close escort.")

Then the campaign takes a dark turn for what would be a Beta-6:

Code: Select all

/* Cam2_4 Rescue civilians from containment camp - player ident */
CAM2_4_MSG			_("TRANSPORT MISSION: Rescue civilians from Containment Camp")
CAM2_4_MSG2			_("The Collective are processing and exterminating civilians at this base.")

/* Cam2_4 Rescue civilians from containment camp - briefing */
CAM2_4_MSG3			_("TRANSPORT MISSION: Rescue civilians from Containment Camp")
CAM2_4_MSG4			_("You are to rescue the civilians.")
CAM2_4_MSG5			_("Then destroy the camp.")

@Bethrezen, looks like whatever happened with unit tactics happened early on. Save and reload related?

[-Philosopher-]

On 3c907bd I took a quick look at:
"-cam1-b: Move enemyBase3 cleanup farther north."
... i.e. Alpha 02 if I understand correctly
It doesn't seem to have fixed it - sorry:

That is EnemyBase3 I'm looking at there, I presume?

-Philosopher-, you should copy all existing research on the differences of wzcam and jscam to a new topic in this forum: viewforum.php?f=51. Otherwise your work might get buried in this monster sized thread (and is easier to find). I still want to focus on making the campaign stable enough for all missions for the next release.

What would be the objective of the new thread? If it's to park stuff you're not looking to deal with now for the future let me know which fall into that category and I'll move those. However, while my posts on Alpha 03 & 05 admittedly ended up focusing on unit behaviour and therefore may fall into that category, that wasn't what set me off down this path in the first place, and not what I expect the theme to be. I was spotting bugs such as missing or wrong objective notifications (red dots), bases not cleaning up properly etc. and only ended up looking at wzcam to see how they should be. The issue was I was coming across them haphazardly and missing many, only to notice them later. I figured a more methodical approach would save me time in the long run, but the objective was always to find bugs.

That said, what's a bug? I could play the 3.2.3 campaign through to the end, so in a sense, it was already "stable"... it's just all the little things added up to a much less satisfying experience than what I remembered from the earlier versions, hence coming here. So... not sure where to draw the line. To date, I've been taking a "the more the merrier" approach, on the expectation you won't use all of it, but if you give me a steer on what you'd find more useful I'd be happy to adjust.

As for Alpha 3, I do not see it as an issue. It was made to prevent an exploit with oil. The player gets one transport load so this mission, in a sense, puts new players to the test regardless.

My suggestion also avoids the oil exploit, but fine... you're the boss Dropping it now...

cam...
1-a, 1-b, 1-1(s), 1-2(s), 1-3(s), 1-c, 1-ca, 1-4a(s), 1-5(s), 1a-c, 1-7(s), 1-d(s), 1-end
2-a, 2-1(s), 2-b, 2-2(s), 2-c, 2-5(s), 2-d(s), 2-6(s), 2-7(s), 2-8(s), 2-end.
3-a, 3-1(s), 3-b, 3-2(s), 3-ab, 3-c, 3-ad1, 3-ad2, 3-4(s).

It's useful seeing them laid out - thanks. I'm sure I'll be referring back to this.

Cool thing is that there are mission objectives for non-existent missions still in the data/base/messages/strings directory (even have a complete and unused map for 3-3 in the wrf/cam3 folder).

That is cool. This is off-topic, admittedly, but I'd love to take a look at that map too. How does one do that?

[Berserk Cyborg]

That is EnemyBase3 I'm looking at there, I presume?

Yep. I think there is another bunker to the north that this base owns.

What would be the objective of the new thread? If it's to park stuff you're not looking to deal with now for the future let me know which fall into that category and I'll move those. However, while my posts on Alpha 03 & 05 admittedly ended up focusing on unit behaviour and therefore may fall into that category, that wasn't what set me off down this path in the first place, and not what I expect the theme to be. I was spotting bugs such as missing or wrong objective notifications (red dots), bases not cleaning up properly etc. and only ended up looking at wzcam to see how they should be. The issue was I was coming across them haphazardly and missing many, only to notice them later. I figured a more methodical approach would save me time in the long run, but the objective was always to find bugs.

That said, what's a bug? I could play the 3.2.3 campaign through to the end, so in a sense, it was already "stable"... it's just all the little things added up to a much less satisfying experience than what I remembered from the earlier versions, hence coming here. So... not sure where to draw the line. To date, I've been taking a "the more the merrier" approach, on the expectation you won't use all of it, but if you give me a steer on what you'd find more useful I'd be happy to adjust.

I meant the finer details like group behavior/unit production and anything else that would go otherwise unnoticed.

Speaking of wzcam, have you noticed any missing structures (or stuff we should be able to build) that we can not build anymore? Just want to make sure the research is granting everything properly.

That is cool. This is off-topic, admittedly, but I'd love to take a look at that map too. How does one do that?

Download FlaME (map editor) and the tilesets/3.1 objects. https://warzone.atlassian.net/wiki/spac ... E/overview. Open your install directory for warzone and unpack the sub3-3 .gam and folder in the data/base/wrf/cam3 directory and select the 3-3.gam to load the map (There is an option to choose the tileset in the texture tab).

Here is a picture of it. It only needs enemy placements to be complete.

Unused map for Gamma campaign.

[Bethrezen]

@Bethrezen, looks like whatever happened with unit tactics happened early on. Save and reload related?

Possibly I do know that when I load up my earlier save that is at about 1 hour 10 minuets which is just after I have finished researching the hover artefact if I turn on the deity cheat there are no units up at there base.

Having said that I have noticed that the computers units seem to change behaviour after I convert my first 2 squads to hover craft and I destroy there sensor towers, along the west side of the map blinding them to the movements of my hover units, at that point most of there attacks against me seem to stop.

It's almost like there units attack orders depend on there ability to see my units, if they can't see them because I blow up there sensor towers they just sit there doing nothing.

Don’t know if that’s helpful at all but hopefully it will help you narrow down what's going wrong with there units tactics.