Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Postby Berserk Cyborg » 18 Sep 2017, 18:50

-Philosopher- wrote:Turns out it's just stuck writing a million lines to the log file and eventually sorts out, but obviously something isn't right. Typical example attached. Reloading either of the saves generates a lot of log entries.
So that is why it takes like a minute or so to move the screen. Wonder if it is safe to remove the assert completely.

alfred007 wrote:Does anybody knows if the power generator of the collective in the NW base really give new power to the collective or not?
It does. But as you can imagine one or two derricks is not going to generate a lot of oil.

I myself am sitting at pre-away Beta 4. Invest in lots of AA capabilities and trucks because 5 VTOL lancers will destroy anything if given the chance. Or have a sacrificial team ready to distract the VTOLs away from your main fighters.
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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Postby alfred007 » 18 Sep 2017, 20:39

Berserk Cyborg wrote:
alfred007 wrote:Does anybody knows if the power generator of the collective in the NW base really give new power to the collective or not?
It does. But as you can imagine one or two derricks is not going to generate a lot of oil.


Not much but enough to keep the factories alive. I already tested beta 3 last weekend, but didn't reported. I don't know why. But last weekend the collective run out of power with 30 minutes left on the timer, when I let the four factories in the north alive and destroyed the power generator. Today I let the power generator alive and the factories produced units till the end of the level. The level looks fine, still the problem of the repair bonus after safeload. No more vtol's after the HQ is destroyed, factories are working all time. The infos in the logs results from the fact, that I started from the end of beta 2, so that are all the known infos from away missions.

I made a test with damaged buildings and it looks like damaged things gets a bonus of 57-59 percent every saveload. That means if a building or unit is down to 100 hitpoints it has 158 after the first saveload and 250 after the second and so on until it's total repaired. Weird.

From tomorrow on I have a new job. That means I will have less time for testing. I'm still here, but don't expect as much input as before.
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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Postby -Philosopher- » 18 Sep 2017, 21:33

alfred007 wrote:At the moment I'm testing beta 3 with master 1c1b9c5. Looks fine so far, but I'm not finished. Does anybody knows if the power generator of the collective in the NW base really give new power to the collective or not?


It appears to. Last time I played beta 3 I could see the nearby oil derrick moving until I destroyed the power generator then it stopped - as they do when they've no power generator to convert their output to energy. The factories had been periodically spitting out vehicles until that point, but after that appeared to stop too. Anecdotal evidence only, admittedly, but points to it working correctly I think?

[Edit]
I should have read on to the end of the thread - apologies for the redundant reply...
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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Postby -Philosopher- » 18 Sep 2017, 21:52

Testing on Master 1c1b9c5 (17 Sep 2017)

Alpha 06

There's definitely something screwy going on with the scav base embedded in the central plateau base. It doesn't appear to break the level, but shouldn't it give an audio message when discovering the scav base, and where's its red dot? Here's the scene before and just after the first scav buildings heave into view:
Image Image
Should be able to see the left-hand red dot by now, shouldn't I?

There was no 'Scavenger Base Eradicated' audio message when I wiped them out either.

On a related note, shouldn't the LZ south of this area also have a red dot, now it's opened up (after the cutscene you get as you head south from here)? As you can see from the mini-map there's none showing. IMO there should be some visual or audio confirmation of the LZ being closed down. There was certainly a red dot present in earlier versions.

Here's someone else's old screenshot lifted from the forums:
Image
(not sure how to control the sizing with the img tag - sorry)

Anyway, the level finished fine, so no critical issue here, but it'd be good form to give a visual cue for each cleanup area in case a player has trouble completing the level for some reason, right?

Alpha 07

Looks good. It took a second or two to kick in (1), but here's (2) the green dot, and (3) no green dot as soon as four structures are completed:
Image Image Image

Tested again, this time building the same four structures in advance on Alpha 06:
Image
Again, looks good.

Alpha 08, 09, 11

All good, practically. Usual log file messages associated with away missions though, repeated many times:
Code: Select all
info    |01:24:38: [triggerEventSeen:1287] Scripts not initialized yet
info    |01:24:38: [triggerEventSeen:1287] Assert in Warzone: qtscript.cpp:1287 (scriptsReady), last script event: 'N/A'
What do these mean?

One thing I failed to absorb in all the previous conversation is why we're meant to have Python Body etc. in Alpha 08. What's the rationale? Was this a long-standing bug in the campaign the way it was?

By the way, here's an enemy transport coming in (Alpha 09). Shouldn't there be a red dot associated with the LZ for this?
Image

Alpha 12

The cleanup area for the NW NP base (the one with two factories et al.) is bigger than it used to be. It didn't use to include all the outlying bunkers etc. (the ones over the back in particular) - it only included the few that were closest. The stage also used to finish when you eliminated all of the bases (i.e. red dots) rather than every structure on the map. In its current form it's a bit of a faff. Schlepping back to the LZ is a bit of pain too. It's such a big stage it takes an eon for slow movers (e.g. tracked) to get back to the beginning.

[Edit]
Just found returning to the LZ doesn't work - see screenshot. That's all my units:
Image Image
In the second screenshot I recycled a bunch so they'd take up less area. Still no joy. So, at the moment, you have to schelp around the map and destroy everything to finish. I think this could be improved - both with recognising when everything's back in the LZ and making it so you just have to eliminate the bases to finish - as per above.
Not the end of Alpha 12.zip
(904.48 KiB) Downloaded 6 times

[Edit 2]
Even weirder... after the scene above I set out with my hovering artillery team to bomb the remaining few NP defences visible in the mini-map. After I was just outside the LZ area and on the water... the stage decided to suddenly end (successfully)! Something screwy going on there - is the LZ recognition area in the right place?

Irritants

On a more general note, now I'm playing the game a lot more a couple of the UI quirks are driving me absolutely mad. There's the issue of units being deselected when the research screen is open (as Bethrezen has also noted), and contentious issue of "hold" as per this thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=12197. Do you know what the current status of these issues are and if they're receiving focus? I'm (literally) getting RSI trying to work around these bugbears (I'm susceptible, admittedly, so have to be careful on that front), so may have to reduce my activity or stop if they're here to stay, sadly. Is there anything I/we can do to push getting these addressed along?

Here's an example of the latter. In this situation I want the sensor unit to stay put so it bombs defences as they're revealed by the other units, but it really wants to head off and try to find things in the other direction. Not even the hidden H for hold command would make it stay put. Much micromanagement ensued... :(
Sensor wont stay put.zip
(715.16 KiB) Downloaded 6 times


Back to the beta stages now...
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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Postby Berserk Cyborg » 18 Sep 2017, 22:27

-Philosopher- wrote:Alpha 06

There's definitely something screwy going on with the scav base embedded in the central plateau base. It doesn't appear to break the level, but shouldn't it give an audio message when discovering the scav base, and where's its red dot?

On a related note, shouldn't the LZ south of this area also have a red dot, now it's opened up (after the cutscene you get as you head south from here)? As you can see from the mini-map there's none showing. IMO there should be some visual or audio confirmation of the LZ being closed down. There was certainly a red dot present in earlier versions.
Looks like the scavenger base is not being detected anymore. Still, will investigate this.

-Philosopher- wrote:Alpha 08, 09, 11

All good, practically. Usual log file messages associated with away missions though, repeated many times:
Code: Select all
info    |01:24:38: [triggerEventSeen:1287] Scripts not initialized yet
info    |01:24:38: [triggerEventSeen:1287] Assert in Warzone: qtscript.cpp:1287 (scriptsReady), last script event: 'N/A'
What do these mean?

One thing I failed to absorb in all the previous conversation is why we're meant to have Python Body etc. in Alpha 08. What's the rationale? Was this a long-standing bug in the campaign the way it was?

By the way, here's an enemy transport coming in (Alpha 09). Shouldn't there be a red dot associated with the LZ for this?
Means there is an event firing (in this case eventSeen) when all the scripts are not loaded and ready. It is more or less informational and does not affect anything. The extra research that the player gets at the start of Alpha 9 is supposed to appear in Alpha 8. But due to the "requiredStructure" check only looking into the current map it means the research items that used it will disappear again once leaving when leaving home base. Better to allow it regardless until the "requiredStructure" thing works as intended. I will fix the LZ not having a blip in Alpha 6 and 9/

I will look at the original cleanup coordinates and use those for the NW base. Never saw that one were leaving droids in the LZ and reloading a save causes it to think there are more droids than there actually are in the pickup area. Will look into it.

Source side bugs are always a problem. Thing is there are not that many people around (~0-2 at any given time) to try and fix them due to various factors like free time or other things in life (or maybe the Project don't know how :P). The source is complex--bringing spaghetti code to a whole new level--to say the least so it may take a while for those kind of things to get fixed.
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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Postby Bethrezen » 19 Sep 2017, 01:00

Ok so after checking out the latest changes for alpha 07 and alpha 09 I found no issues, and I'm now back at alpha 12, however despite my best efforts and despite repeated attempts I still can not beat this in 1 hour 20 minutes I'm getting closer this last run i went full hover mode and got to where there enemy HQ is when I ran out of time.

Here is why I'm running out of time.

Image Image Image

The computer simply has too many units and I can't cut my way though them fast enough, going head to head is not on option every time I've tried that I get flattened, I've even had a few occasions where going head to head has resulted in me being attacked by all 3 groups at once the result of which is fairly predictable, game over.

While picking them off with bombards works it's too slow, and given that you don’t have any other options on this level I can't see how this is possible to do in the allotted time, because between the 3 groups they have to be at or over the unit cap, and it doesn't seem to matter how I try to play this level nothing works.

So I think this level still needs further adjustments, because to date I must have made like 20 or 30 attempts to do this in 1 hour 20 minutes and every one of them has resulted in failure.

[edit]

Just out of curiosity how hard would it be to restore the hold position command ?
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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Postby Berserk Cyborg » 19 Sep 2017, 01:31

:shock: That is a lot of units. I suspect because none of the ground units can reach your hover only team the library just tells them to sit there until they can attack something that they can reach with their propulsion.
Too smart for its own good.

Edit:
What should hold do anyway? Just stop moving and fire at stuff and is that not what pressing the h button does?

Edit 2:
Ok from what I have tested is that the h button does change the order to hold, however, it is quickly changed to DORDER_GUARD almost instantly. Might explain why h button command does not work as intended.
Last edited by Berserk Cyborg on 19 Sep 2017, 03:24, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Postby alfred007 » 19 Sep 2017, 01:42

Now I understand better what your problem is. And I'm a little bit confused, because all those units should not sit around their factories and wait, but attack you from time to time so that you just have to fight small groups. With that mass of enemys you have no chance. When I was making my way north I get constantly attacked, so when I came to that point where you are there are not so many troops. There is something wrong. And if I understand the code right the cyborgs should go to patrol and attack you as soon as there are four together. And with that what you happened you are definitely right, that we need further adjustments.
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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Postby -Philosopher- » 19 Sep 2017, 11:42

Berserk Cyborg wrote:Edit:
What should hold do anyway? Just stop moving and fire at stuff and is that not what pressing the h button does?

Edit 2:
Ok from what I have tested is that the h button does change the order to hold, however, it is quickly changed to DORDER_GUARD almost instantly. Might explain why h button command does not work as intended.


The other issue with the H command is it isn't a mode - i.e. you have to command a unit to hold after every movement. Under the old system, you could put a unit into hold "mode" and tell it to go somewhere, secure in the knowledge it would stay put once it arrived.

Under the current scheme, if you want a unit to hold at a destination it's micromanagement intensive. You have to issue the move command, wait for it to arrive, then hit hold the moment it arrives (unless there's some way of queuing the H's? Ctrl-H didn't seem to work for me. Even if it did, it'd still be a pain to have to issue it after every move). Obviously, this isn't practical in any kind of busy stage (i.e. most of them).
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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Postby -Philosopher- » 19 Sep 2017, 12:29

Berserk Cyborg wrote:The extra research that the player gets at the start of Alpha 9 is supposed to appear in Alpha 8. But due to the "requiredStructure" check only looking into the current map it means the research items that used it will disappear again once leaving when leaving home base. Better to allow it regardless until the "requiredStructure" thing works as intended.


Apologies, it's taken me forever to work this out. I think what I was missing was what Composite Alloys Mk2 (and thus Python Body) used to be dependent on - was it the (normal, vehicle) factory? I had been under the impression they had been perceived as something to do with Cyborg Factories. Where, in Alpha 08 do you pick these up? I assume they're dependent on one of the three techs you pick up from the Alpha 08 base - which one?

I didn't help that I also hadn't spotted these were available from the start of Alpha 09 rather than Alpha 10 (I just went back and checked 2.3.8 ).
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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Postby -Philosopher- » 19 Sep 2017, 12:48

Testing on Master 1c1b9c5 (17 Sep 2017)

Beta 01 - 03

Played fine, but had cosmetic issues, some of which were touched on earlier. e.g. Beta 01 -
Image
This is right at the start of the stage. I shouldn't be able to see all that (debug is off, btw). Also, should each of those Collective bases have an associated red dot, with a further one appearing in the SE corner when the LZ opens up?

Had a similar visibility over-sharing issue on Beta 02 too -
Image

Beta 04

Something definitely off about this level, but I'm not sure what. I need to investigate further. Certainly, the course of the level plays out very differently to how it used to in earlier versions. My previous strat for this level was to intercept the commander as it tried to flee from the NW base south, off the edge of the map in the SW, but on my first foray onto the level on this master, I somehow failed the level without the Commander ever showing in the SW. Also, different units arrived in a different order to how was before so their behaviour has changed somewhere along the line (not necessarily a bad thing, but worth understanding I think). Used to be Cyborgs (the commander's advance party) that showed up in the SW first, followed by various tracked vehicles. This time it was hover lancers (and I'd "brought a knife to a gunfight...").

By your understanding, how is this level supposed to work? From that old walkthrough I refer back to from time to time:
Image
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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Postby -Philosopher- » 19 Sep 2017, 12:57

Berserk Cyborg wrote:I will fix the LZ not having a blip in Alpha 6 and 9


Might be worth going through all the enemy LZ instances and check they're being handled consistently (i.e. Alpha 12, Beta 01, etc. as well). In the old scheme the red dot used to appear on them as soon as they were declared open, and was subsequently removed again after the player met the closing down conditions (rather than associated with the related transports as such - in case that was an issue for any of them).

Berserk Cyborg wrote:Never saw that one were leaving droids in the LZ and reloading a save causes it to think there are more droids than there actually are in the pickup area. Will look into it.


Are you referring to my Alpha 12 LZ issue? Reloading a save wasn't the issue. In pic one I'd returned my entire force to the LZ, only to have the level not finish. Speculating they simply weren't fitting into some defined area, I then recycled a bunch and tried again (hence pic two). Still didn't work... until I left the LZ??? No reloading involved however... unless I'm missing something about what you're referring to?
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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Postby Bethrezen » 19 Sep 2017, 15:35

Edit:
What should hold do anyway? Just stop moving and fire at stuff and is that not what pressing the h button does?


As I understand HOLD POSITION should work the same as HOLD FIRE only for movement instead of fire so when a unit is set to HOLD POSITION movement is switched off and they will only move if the player tells them to move, they will however fire at anything that comes into range so long as they are not set to HOLD FIRE as well.

As for pursue well that means what you would think it means chase the target, until its dead or you are.

The other issue with the H command is it isn't a mode - i.e. you have to command a unit to hold after every movement. Under the old system, you could put a unit into hold "mode" and tell it to go somewhere, secure in the knowledge it would stay put once it arrived.

Under the current scheme, if you want a unit to hold at a destination it's micromanagement intensive. You have to issue the move command, wait for it to arrive, then hit hold the moment it arrives (unless there's some way of queuing the H's? Ctrl-H didn't seem to work for me. Even if it did, it'd still be a pain to have to issue it after every move). Obviously, this isn't practical in any kind of busy stage (i.e. most of them).


Indeed Philosopher is correct about this.

The old GUARD, HOLD POSITION, & PURSUE commands where less commands and more actual states where by once i set one of those states on a unit it would stay they way permanently until i decide to change it just as it is with the HOLD FIRE command, if i set a unit to HOLD FIRE it will not fire at anything unless I manually tell it to fire at a specific target or i turn the HOLD FIRE state off and the old GUARD, HOLD POSITION, & PURSUE commands worked the same way only for movement instead of fire.

Although as i understand it the WZ script that governed this was a bit of a mess, which is how we have ended up with the current situation.

Edit 2:
Ok from what I have tested is that the h button does change the order to hold, however, it is quickly changed to DORDER_GUARD almost instantly. Might explain why h button command does not work as intended.


If you are going to take some time to fix the GUARD, HOLD POSITION, & PURSUE commands can you also restore the buttons in the interface to make switching between GUARD, HOLD POSITION, & PURSUE more straightforward, because doing that via hotkeys is annoying and actually requires that you know what the hot key is.

Now I understand better what your problem is. And I'm a little bit confused, because all those units should not sit around their factories and wait, but attack you from time to time so that you just have to fight small groups. With that mass of enemys you have no chance. When I was making my way north I get constantly attacked, so when I came to that point where you are there are not so many troops. There is something wrong. And if I understand the code right the cyborgs should go to patrol and attack you as soon as there are four together. And with that what you happened you are definitely right, that we need further adjustments.


My suspicion is that It's because I converted all my units to hovercraft and as consequence there units can't attack me so they just sit round there base, but of course that makes getting into there base all but impossible because there are simply to many of them and hover crafts are to weakly armoured to go head to head so they get flattened, even tracked heavy body lancers don’t stand a chance against that, partly because you have no room to manoeuvre due to the design of the map and this is precisely why going full hover mode doesn't work.

Now I can pick them off with bombards, but that is a very slow process because that's not really what artillery is designed for.

The way I used to deal with this was to build a bunch of repair pads and then set a group of heavy body tracked lances to hold position within the ark of those repair bays and because there is still one group of units they can reach they would keep attacking them stopping the huge build up in there base.

However because they where situated in-between multiple repair bays it would be more or less impossible for the computer to destroy that group of units because they would be repaired as fast as the computer can damage them.

Therefore I didn’t have to keep an eye on them which left me free to roam the map with my other 2 squads 1 squad of hover lancers and 1 squad of hover bombards, the bombards take down there turrets and the lancers protect the bombards form there hover units.

However at the moment that strategy doesn't work properly because hold position isn’t working and hasn’t been working for quiet some time, and as a consequence if I don’t keep an eye on the tracked lancers they end up getting destroyed because they keep moving away from the repair bays, and unfortunately trying to keep an eye on them is a constant distraction which makes braking down there defences take far far longer then it should because I have to keep stopping what I'm doing to pull my tracked lancers back.

This is why I decided to try going full hover mode because then I don’t have to deal with the incessant attacks, instead I only have to deal with the occasional hover group which my lancer squad can deal with easily enough so long as I remember to build a repair bay near by and set them to retreat an medium damage but of course the problem there is that the computer continues to spam produce units and by the time I have picked my way though there defences there are simply to many of them.

So need another option if I'm ever going to be able to complete this in the allotted time without cheating, now while Alfred has managed to do this try as i might i can't, and every tactic i have tried has failed so I'm well and truly stuck.
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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Postby -Philosopher- » 19 Sep 2017, 17:53

Bethrezen wrote:
Edit:
What should hold do anyway? Just stop moving and fire at stuff and is that not what pressing the h button does?


As I understand HOLD POSITION should work the same as HOLD FIRE only for movement instead of fire so when a unit is set to HOLD POSITION movement is switched off and they will only move if the player tells them to move, they will however fire at anything that comes into range so long as they are not set to HOLD FIRE as well.

As for pursue well that means what you would think it means chase the target, until its dead or you are.

The other issue with the H command is it isn't a mode - i.e. you have to command a unit to hold after every movement. Under the old system, you could put a unit into hold "mode" and tell it to go somewhere, secure in the knowledge it would stay put once it arrived.

Under the current scheme, if you want a unit to hold at a destination it's micromanagement intensive. You have to issue the move command, wait for it to arrive, then hit hold the moment it arrives (unless there's some way of queuing the H's? Ctrl-H didn't seem to work for me. Even if it did, it'd still be a pain to have to issue it after every move). Obviously, this isn't practical in any kind of busy stage (i.e. most of them).


Indeed Philosopher is correct about this.

The old GUARD, HOLD POSITION, & PURSUE commands where less commands and more actual states where by once i set one of those states on a unit it would stay they way permanently until i decide to change it just as it is with the HOLD FIRE command, if i set a unit to HOLD FIRE it will not fire at anything unless I manually tell it to fire at a specific target or i turn the HOLD FIRE state off and the old GUARD, HOLD POSITION, & PURSUE commands worked the same way only for movement instead of fire.

Although as i understand it the WZ script that governed this was a bit of a mess, which is how we have ended up with the current situation.

Edit 2:
Ok from what I have tested is that the h button does change the order to hold, however, it is quickly changed to DORDER_GUARD almost instantly. Might explain why h button command does not work as intended.


If you are going to take some time to fix the GUARD, HOLD POSITION, & PURSUE commands can you also restore the buttons in the interface to make switching between GUARD, HOLD POSITION, & PURSUE more straightforward, because doing that via hotkeys is annoying and actually requires that you know what the hot key is.


That's a good way of explaining it and I second all of this. Removing these from the game removed a level of sophistication it used to have. I also think they worked better and more people used them than perhaps was understood... but all of this has been covered already in the thread viewtopic.php?f=6&t=12197. @Beserk Cyborg, don't suppose you know the current state and thinking is on this?

Beta 04

I figured out what's changed - or part of it, at least. In the old game, the commander and his team used to head directly south down the road.

In its new form, the exit point seems to have shifted left into the corner, meaning that he now hugs the left-hand edge of the map rather than sticking to the road. In particular, this means he ends up going down the other side of the hump in the north of these pictures rather than curving around the right and back onto the road. He also does this at the same time as another group sallies forth from the base and attacks around the right. I don't remember these groups coinciding in the past. This makes him somewhat more difficult to get at than it used to be, and between the VTOLS and Tank Killer armed units, you're pretty much guaranteed to lose a fair number of units no matter what you do (and I've tried several different approaches). On the flip side, the collective sensor unit travels too far to the left to spot anything, so at least that's now in our favour?
Image Image
Advance guard cyborgs heading around the other side of the hillock to what they used to and the commander doing the same, respectively, in these two shots. (screenshots have god mode on, obviously). In the first shot, hover lancers manufactured in the NW base have turned up at the same time too.

None of which is necessarily an issue, but is it an intentional change? If so, I'm not sure it's for the better.

Can the Commander's exit point be restored to the south end of the road?

I'm also wondering about the timing of events on this level - does the commander make a break for it earlier than he used to? I'd have to look at how it plays out in an old version to be sure, but it seemed that way to me... it felt like there was less time to get set up for his run south than I remember.

Alpha 11... old version

I also spent some time continuing my parallel campaign in 2.3.8. I noticed a lot of things about Alpha 11 that seem to have gotten lost in the current version. It's all small-detail stuff, but I think the difference to the experience mounts up when they're considered in aggregate.

In the latest examples of such things, I spotted more missing/changed red dots,
Image
there's an incoming intelligence report that cuts in when the NP pick up the HC tech (is that working currently? I don't remember it...), any unit, not just the heavy tank, picks up the HC tech, and if that unit gets destroyed and drops it, another unit will pick it up, etc. (so their differing movement speeds is less of an issue as a result)
Image Image
and the tank traps blocking the "mountain-top" path to the enemy LZ (the one with the nasty choke point) are actually part of the Scav base to the NE, so when all the scav structures are destroyed those walls blow up with it - suddenly freeing attacking enemy to come via this route:
Image
(note tank traps in the process of blowing up as the base is eradicated)
Image
Both rows of tank traps are part of the scav base.
(note these pictures are named incorrectly - they're Alpha, not Beta, obviously - this can be safely ignored)

I suspect there are lots of such subtle differences in all the levels that I've missed so far, but, like the tank traps in this level, could make quite a difference in how the level plays out. While I appreciate prioritising bug-fixing/making things work over faithfully reproducing the original campaign, I worry that we're just making work for ourselves by not being more rigorous at inadvertently introducing differences such as these - it'll be more work to find and unpick them later (to say nothing of the danger of missing them) than avoiding unnecessarily introducing them up front. So, I'm going to go back to the start and go through the stages in parallel on both versions more methodically, but I'm wondering if there's anything that can be done on the coding side to be more thorough about transferring over the detail of red dot states, base dimensions, active zones, AI routing etc?

For clarity, I'm only referring to unconscious changes however - deliberate decisions to make things different are a different debate of course.
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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Postby Berserk Cyborg » 19 Sep 2017, 21:03

-Philosopher- wrote:That's a good way of explaining it and I second all of this. Removing these from the game removed a level of sophistication it used to have. I also think they worked better and more people used them than perhaps was understood... but all of this has been covered already in the thread viewtopic.php?f=6&t=12197. @Beserk Cyborg, don't suppose you know the current state and thinking is on this?
I do not know the exact logic behind it. I think it was because of them not having clear descriptions about what they should do as I believe that is the underlying reason why those three got removed.

-Philosopher- wrote:Beta 04
Can the Commander's exit point be restored to the south end of the road?
Done.

-Philosopher- wrote:I'm also wondering about the timing of events on this level - does the commander make a break for it earlier than he used to? I'd have to look at how it plays out in an old version to be sure, but it seemed that way to me... it felt like there was less time to get set up for his run south than I remember.
I use the original trigger area (long horizontal rectangle seen in debug mode). The commander does take a simplified path to the NW base as otherwise path issue arise from my testing. Usually by the time you enter the trigger the commander can exit the map in ~8 minutes.

-Philosopher- wrote:Alpha 11... old version

I also spent some time continuing my parallel campaign in 2.3.8. I noticed a lot of things about Alpha 11 that seem to have gotten lost in the current version. It's all small-detail stuff, but I think the difference to the experience mounts up when they're considered in aggregate.

In the latest examples of such things, I spotted more missing/changed red dots,

there's an incoming intelligence report that cuts in when the NP pick up the HC tech (is that working currently? I don't remember it...), any unit, not just the heavy tank, picks up the HC tech, and if that unit gets destroyed and drops it, another unit will pick it up, etc. (so their differing movement speeds is less of an issue as a result)

and the tank traps blocking the "mountain-top" path to the enemy LZ (the one with the nasty choke point) are actually part of the Scav base to the NE, so when all the scav structures are destroyed those walls blow up with it - suddenly freeing attacking enemy to come via this route:
I do not see missing blips. They activate once the player sees one of the base structures. I used the original cleanup area for the northern scavenger base so I would probably have to move it seeing as there is no way to distinguish walls and tank traps as far as I know.

Fixed the cleanup coordinates for the NW base in Alpha 12. At the time I did not know where they were so I more or less went in game, clicked on the map, and created new ones.

So you never went in debug mode and can see everything in Beta? What happens if you use the "deity" cheat twice and does everything go back to normal?

I will push updates when I accumulate more fixes.
Berserk Cyborg
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