Addicting, VERRRY ADDICTING

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Expand view Topic review: Addicting, VERRRY ADDICTING

Re: Addicting, VERRRY ADDICTING

by Jonix » 21 Nov 2011, 09:43

THIS FORUM IS MAD :stare: ! I'm not really sure what all of this has to do with project feedback? :lol2:

Re: Addicting, VERRRY ADDICTING

by NoDDiE » 18 Nov 2011, 11:35

So far starcraft//starcraft2 is best rts around. (in terms of multiplayer) with huge e-sport support and opportunity to earn money by playing//teaching etc.
however there are few other good rts around aoe series, earth 2150. but they lack the "Battle.net" style feature to support.

thats why i found this site and i wanted to give wz2100 multiplayer a try.

Re: Addicting, VERRRY ADDICTING

by zydonk » 15 Nov 2011, 12:50

cybersphinx wrote:
zydonk wrote:After several years of active discussion the fact is that very little has changed in WZ.
I would attribute this more to a codebase resisting change (and little manpower) - there is often no quick way for experiments to see if some change would work out.
Fair enough. I didn't mean it as a criticism. There have been minor changes that people have resisted, such as the build progress bar recently. As it is, the gameplay of WZ is just so good.

Would building in increased costs - for ammo and repairs, for example - be feasible? In Earth 2150, even research has to be paid for. It could add a meaningful depth to the game.

Re: Addicting, VERRRY ADDICTING

by cybersphinx » 14 Nov 2011, 17:40

zydonk wrote:After several years of active discussion the fact is that very little has changed in WZ.
I would attribute this more to a codebase resisting change (and little manpower) - there is often no quick way for experiments to see if some change would work out.

Re: Addicting, VERRRY ADDICTING

by zydonk » 14 Nov 2011, 13:16

Oh dear.

Free play (existential): see a child engrossed totally in play with just a few bits and pieces of wood - completely engaged at the level of imagination.

Anyway, to continue:

Development of WZ2100. Best way to approach the subject is by looking at how similar games developed. C&C remained unchanged at core, concentrating instead on the campaigns. It didn't change because it did not have to. TA was later developed into SupComm, a sort of Shogun with tanks, and seems to have proved very popular. The game I regard as closest to WZ is Earth 2150. This was followed by two releases that added only a few heavier mechs - no doubt reflecting the greater CPU power available - and, again, new campaigns. Later the franchise was reworked into Earth 2160, an extraordinarily complex game that I still don't understand.

All these development lines seems to have ceased, I assume in part because consoles don't suit RTS.

On the basis of the above cursory glance, how would WZ have developed if Pumpkin had remained in business? Sabotage might have been a good option - the medieval RTS Battle Kings uses saboteurs to good effect. The problem here is that sabotage has little more than nuisance value - "unnecessary obstacles", RV's happy phrase - the kind of frustrations that aging programmers use in place of genuine innovation.

It seems to me that other than extensive redesign, not much would have changed in the basic gaming. Many find the map editor clunky, but the maps it produces suit WZ perfectly. The animations could be extended, drawing upon Earth 2150 as an example. All projectile weaponry should need to be rearmed, and these munitions should be paid for - as should all repairs. There could be a night/day cycle, with lighting added for night play. Include power stations, perhaps located near wells. Increase the number of units, but pretty soon what is a "gang" would become a crowd for the player to be lost in.

But the point I would make - for what it is worth as a player rather than part of the dev - is that WZ is - like C&C - good enough as it is: both focus on gameplay above all other considerations. After several years of active discussion the fact is that very little has changed in WZ. What we have seen are improvements in the delivery of the game on our screens, in sound and graphics. In other words, given the opportunity to change, people have realised almost every time that the game as it is is good enough for our purposes, which is as ever gameplay.

Re: Addicting, VERRRY ADDICTING

by lav_coyote25 » 13 Nov 2011, 01:58

ya know. i did say and i quote here:
whichever. to me is still a flame like starter. and , one that will NOT be used here. i am pretty flexible, but when it comes to some words and being used as an insult ... nope. not going to happen. subject is now done. everyone is on the same page now. we don't use disparaging remarks. OK? :dontknow: OK! :ok:

:ireful: WHAT!! can no one just leave it (expletive deleted) be. nooooo, got to keep stirring the pot, making people feel not welcome. next comment that i see from any (expletive deleted) about any community member , will be with out a posting place for a month. a second flaming comment will get that person perm banned. as i have stated prior. you want to argue - go someplace else and do it. i have seen this community fragmented by such small minded comment's that today was the last that will be tolerated. thanks to all who participated, we have lost a member. way to (expletive deleted) go!!!!!! / :ireful:

Re: Addicting, VERRRY ADDICTING

by Rman Virgil » 12 Nov 2011, 23:58

.

"Bait ?" Not in the least. Though I'm sure now it's no coincidence that the salient points expressed at the very begining are not spoken to, yet again, with anything remotely resembling rigor. Nor will that ever happen for the conversation is not based on the goal of reciprocal understanding but rather something else.

(Let me break-down the post you summed, dismissed & dissed as "bait". Opened with self-deprecating humor based on literary wit, panache & allusion that was tightly, & elegantly, relevant to the proceedings. This was followed by a rational comment on the 2 irrelevant posts in between. Next was logical argument correlated to specific knowledge in the cognitive sciences, 13 years of deep experience with everything WZ, reference to actual work done by those who created WZ 2100 from scratch whom I also conversed with directly over many years, plus intimate knowledge of game design. "Bait ?" I think rather the onus falls on your powers of ratiocination & cosmopolitan discernment. Still, it matters for naught in the dominant culture of these environs, I am well aware.)

How I experience WZ you have not surmised correctly - not even close. However, let's be frank, that understanding is not your goal here.

"Free play" & WZ MP are worlds apart; incongruous really. You won't get that from playing CAM & SKI modes exclusively. If ever you engage the art form called bricolage or improv ensemble musicianship, you will grasp the aforementioned incongruence of applying that term to WZ first of all, and second, having the presumption to assume I know not what "free-play" means intellectually or viscerally when in fact I know both, & the later, profoundly.)

WZ's survival is something I am also intimately familiar with & I will state, without any doubt, it most definitely does not speak for itself. (Unless you count straight up bull-chit and whole-cloth conflation as "truth".)

Our sensibilities are worlds apart on WZ & all else that has come up here. And never shall the twain meet in mutual edification - let alone be an enjoyable process of enlightenment.

Experiencing this thread's evolution confirms the conclusion I arrived at 6 months ago - to wit, that my 13 year engagement with the game, & all its communities, on every possible level, should no longer include postings here.

So, I shall leave it at that.
.

Re: Addicting, VERRRY ADDICTING

by zydonk » 11 Nov 2011, 12:33

Rman Virgil wrote:.

"And call me Ishmael...."

('Cept for the white whale of that epic journey, substitute minnow and for mighty storms in the North Atlantic ocean, a tempest in a teapot. :rofl2: )

....................................................

zydonk wrote:Now that the dust has settled lets get to the meat:
With the 2 posts after yours... Hmmm, maybe regular dust has settled but radioactive fallout would appear to persist... :zomby:
zydonk wrote:Chess is a game that offers more knowledge than most could absorb and use, and has a finite number of very simple moves. People still play it with great relish.
I would substitute plethora of viable, winning, "Tactics & Strategies" (including those called asymmetric & gambits) for "knowledge", first off.

Then for "moves" I would substitute "rules".

Next, I would make clear that at present WZ 2100 does NOT possess these timeless, classic, GPM attributes.

Lastly, I would state flatly that the substance of my original postings (one you quoted & one unquoted) was about HOW exactly to evolve WZ 2100 GPMs so that it could more closely approach those rich game play attributes just explicated for chess. (And that WZ Creators, Pumpkin, foresaw & even laid the groundwork for that direction of development - which also happens to coincide with 21st century, high tech, RL military doctrine.) :read:
zydonk wrote:Perhaps you confuse interest and worth.


Nope. :ninja:

"Interest" is an unquantified term for a cognitive state of attention in which the spectrum can run the gamut from "passing interest" to "enduring, generative, interest".

"Worth" is a term denoting a value judgement. "Value" is something one strives to attain and hang on to.
zydonk wrote:Farmers will work the same fields and artisans make things because they are worth doing, not merely because they find their work interesting.
Yikes, where to begin deconstructing this word salad. :scratch1:

Agriculture is part of an essential basic survival strategy. :ok:

Art is part of culture and not at all essential to basic survival. Though the "play" component of artistic efforts can hone skills that can be applied to long term survival as when lion cubs "play" fight.

Compelling & sustained "interest" is part of the ignition & deep practice equation on the 10,000 hour path from rank newbie (or dilettante) to expert mastery (or world class talent).

There is so much more that can be said on artistry, the act of original creation, aesthetics, mastery & talent but, for the sake of BB posting brevity, I shall leave it at this for the moment. :hmm:
"interesting" is for the dilettante, who has no better motivation.
Deconstructed already & would only add for emphasis that "interest" is the initial building block of mastery. What separates a dilettante from a master is sustaining the interest over time with deep practice & generative feedback.

..................

On Amazon.com you can vote on the value of individual postings.

To wit: "Does this post add to the discussion ?"

I would have to vote a definitive NO on the 2 posts between Zydonk's and mine here. :boredom:

Regards, Rman. 8)
.

All that bait...

Moving on:

The survival of WZ speaks for itself, which indicates an intrinsic worth. And that is? Free-play. Contrasted with directed play or rat-mazing. All the play activity is located within the game, within its rules - and limitations. It's an existential thing - one experiences it or one does not. I do - and I reckon many others do. Perhaps you don't, hoping instead that if WZ is improved you might someday experience it as free-play.

Re: Addicting, VERRRY ADDICTING

by Rman Virgil » 11 Nov 2011, 10:18

.

"And call me Ishmael...."

('Cept for the white whale of that epic journey, substitute minnow and for mighty storms in the North Atlantic ocean, a tempest in a teapot. :rofl2: )

....................................................

zydonk wrote:Now that the dust has settled lets get to the meat:
With the 2 posts after yours... Hmmm, maybe regular dust has settled but radioactive fallout would appear to persist... :zomby:
zydonk wrote:Chess is a game that offers more knowledge than most could absorb and use, and has a finite number of very simple moves. People still play it with great relish.
I would substitute plethora of viable, winning, "Tactics & Strategies" (including those called asymmetric & gambits) for "knowledge", first off.

Then for "moves" I would substitute "rules".

Next, I would make clear that at present WZ 2100 does NOT possess these timeless, classic, GPM attributes.

Lastly, I would state flatly that the substance of my original postings (one you quoted & one unquoted) was about HOW exactly to evolve WZ 2100 GPMs so that it could more closely approach those rich game play attributes just explicated for chess. (And that WZ Creators, Pumpkin, foresaw & even laid the groundwork for that direction of development - which also happens to coincide with 21st century, high tech, RL military doctrine.) :read:
zydonk wrote:Perhaps you confuse interest and worth.


Nope. :ninja:

"Interest" is an unquantified term for a cognitive state of attention in which the spectrum can run the gamut from "passing interest" to "enduring, generative, interest".

"Worth" is a term denoting a value judgement. "Value" is something one strives to attain and hang on to.
zydonk wrote:Farmers will work the same fields and artisans make things because they are worth doing, not merely because they find their work interesting.
Yikes, where to begin deconstructing this word salad. :scratch1:

Agriculture is part of an essential basic survival strategy. :ok:

Art is part of culture and not at all essential to basic survival. Though the "play" component of artistic efforts can hone skills that can be applied to long term survival as when lion cubs "play" fight.

Compelling & sustained "interest" is part of the ignition & deep practice equation on the 10,000 hour path from rank newbie (or dilettante) to expert mastery (or world class talent).

There is so much more that can be said on artistry, the act of original creation, aesthetics, mastery & talent but, for the sake of BB posting brevity, I shall leave it at this for the moment. :hmm:
"interesting" is for the dilettante, who has no better motivation.
Deconstructed already & would only add for emphasis that "interest" is the initial building block of mastery. What separates a dilettante from a master is sustaining the interest over time with deep practice & generative feedback.

..................

On Amazon.com you can vote on the value of individual postings.

To wit: "Does this post add to the discussion ?"

I would have to vote a definitive NO on the 2 posts between Zydonk's and mine here. :boredom:

Regards, Rman. 8)
.

Re: Addicting, VERRRY ADDICTING

by Jonix » 10 Nov 2011, 20:55

And thats a good thing. :( :| :) :D XD .

Re: Addicting, VERRRY ADDICTING

by Jonix » 10 Nov 2011, 20:51

You seem like... Rman Virgil MK2 (mark 2) :lol2: :lol2: .

Re: Addicting, VERRRY ADDICTING

by zydonk » 10 Nov 2011, 13:10

Rman Virgil wrote:
The eventual roteness falls squarely on a play dynamic that is overwhelmingly weighted on the frontend in favor of fighting WITH information. To get beyond that stasis the game play weighting would have to shift more in favor of needing to fight FOR information.

The subtle [design] expression here makes a world of difference in replay value by minimizing that rote predictability which is its bane & thus spurring on that compelling desire to voluntarily overcome the unnecessary obstacles that is in essence a game.
Now that the dust has settled lets get to the meat:

Chess is a game that offers more knowledge than most could absorb and use, and has a finite number of very simple moves. People still play it with great relish.

Perhaps you confuse interest and worth. Farmers will work the same fields and artisans make things because they are worth doing, not merely because they find their work interesting.

"interesting" is for the dilettante, who has no better motivation.

Re: Addicting, VERRRY ADDICTING

by Jonix » 10 Nov 2011, 09:36

Lord Apocalypse wrote:yes, and was once upon a time, Rman Jack from the old newst boards. This should clear things up for everyone. Don't know why the name change, but everyone does something for a reason.
Thankyou for telling me :oops: :dontknow: :annoyed:

Re: Addicting, VERRRY ADDICTING

by Lord Apocalypse » 10 Nov 2011, 02:59

yes, and was once upon a time, Rman Jack from the old newst boards. This should clear things up for everyone. Don't know why the name change, but everyone does something for a reason.

Re: Addicting, VERRRY ADDICTING

by Jonix » 09 Nov 2011, 21:27

Yes, you're definitely correct on that :geek: . Also I can't seem to make heads or tales of this... so "Rman Virgil"
(strange nickname :hmm: )has posed as "OfNoAccout"... :annoyed: :lecture: :lecture: :hmm: ?

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